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Old 04-09-2010, 02:39 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Watcha Lego. No mate. I think you might have got that wrong. The doctor doesn't amputate the leg for "nothing". The doctor amputates the gangrenous leg (the evil) to save the patients life (the good end). The doctor can't do anything other than amputate because that is the only option open to him with his limitations. But with an omnipotent deity, it would not be necessary to amputate the leg because the options for the end result of 'good' (saving the patients life) would be limitless.
Hi Rafius, I was referring to your second point in the analogy. You said:

In fact, a more accurate analogy is a doctor who first actively infects the leg of his patient (God is the cause of all things), and then decide to amputate his leg when a less severe cure was available

In this analogy your doctor amputated the leg when He didn't have to. In this case, the doctor amputated the leg for nothing - because he could have just given the "less severe cure that was available". That indeed is quite evil and purposeless.

But my point was God doesn't do things to be evil. God does things for a purpose and because it will lead to a greater good. And the greater good is more than simply letting a patient live. God is giving us knowledge - His knowledge. God is teaching us so we will be like him; made in his image - which is LOVE.

I ask you to look at the other points I made - namely in how does one "learn" patience - it cannot be done quickly... likewise how does one learn to have endurance if there is nothing to endure.

This life is not about giving us a "pleasant" experience as your doctor analogy might try to imply. Its about us learning positive virtues so we will be made into spiritual giants (hope you get what I'm meaning here). In a sense this life is "boot camp". It may be tough at times but it will be worth it.

Quote:
Sorry old beast, I've just read that again and it doesn't get the message across as I would like. Really not firing on all cylinders this evening after a bummer of a day. I'd better try again later.
No problem.

But hey who are you calling "old"? I'm 37 years young. I admit sometimes I can be beastly though - but I'm working on it...
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Old 04-09-2010, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Home, Home on the Front Range
21,026 posts, read 15,237,623 times
Reputation: 11768
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpidrAkirE View Post
The Universe is somewhere between 12 and 14 billion years old, or10,000 years or less for those that follow Creationism (the age of the universe doesn't matter for the sake of this question).

God was not born and so had been doing his thing (presumably nothing, since nothing existed) in the middle of nowhere (since nothing existed), for ever. Then, Suddenly, God decided to Create a Universe.

What made him Suddenly Decide to make something? Wouldn't something have had to happen to inspire such a creation after so long doing nothing?
No TV.
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Old 04-10-2010, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,853 posts, read 9,651,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi Rafius, I was referring to your second point in the analogy. You said:

In fact, a more accurate analogy is a doctor who first actively infects the leg of his patient (God is the cause of all things), and then decide to amputate his leg when a less severe cure was available

In this analogy your doctor amputated the leg when He didn't have to. In this case, the doctor amputated the leg for nothing - because he could have just given the "less severe cure that was available". That indeed is quite evil and purposeless.
No, no!! That is what Yahweh is doing. Put Yahweh in the place of the doctor. God causes the evil (the gangrenous leg) then amputates it when he has the power to solve the problem by less sever options. The doctor on the other hand has no option BUT to amputate the leg because there is no other cure for the problem.

Still doesn't sound right. Anyone else out there that understands what I'm saying and can explain it better? I think I need a night of alcohol, drugs and sexual debauchery to get my head right!!
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Old 04-10-2010, 11:51 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,481,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpidrAkirE View Post
The Universe is somewhere between 12 and 14 billion years old, or10,000 years or less for those that follow Creationism (the age of the universe doesn't matter for the sake of this question).

God was not born and so had been doing his thing (presumably nothing, since nothing existed) in the middle of nowhere (since nothing existed), for ever. Then, Suddenly, God decided to Create a Universe.

What made him Suddenly Decide to make something? Wouldn't something have had to happen to inspire such a creation after so long doing nothing?
How do we know this is all not an eternally recurring thing ala the Hindu cosmology?Something like a trillion years of evolution,followed by destruction,followed by a trillion years of nothing,followed by another trillion years of evolution,and on and on.Who has a clue what happened before our Big Bang?Or if there are a million other multiverses all going on concurrently and eternally?I for one don't hold to the idea that before 15 billion years ago God was just sitting around twiddling his thumbs.And this doesn't even address the fact that "time" doesn't exist outside of creation.
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Old 04-10-2010, 01:21 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
No, no!! That is what Yahweh is doing. Put Yahweh in the place of the doctor. God causes the evil (the gangrenous leg) then amputates it when he has the power to solve the problem by less sever options. The doctor on the other hand has no option BUT to amputate the leg because there is no other cure for the problem.
I understand what you meant. The problem is the analogy doesn't work anymore if you put Yahweh in there. If a doctor does it, it is evil, because a doctor is finite. If God does it, it is good, because He can work it for a greater good.

Read the rest of my post. God intends for us to go through severe situations on this earth. The severity is necessary. If we didn't go through the severe option (ie. leg amputation or whatever), the desired result would not be achieved. I'm not sure how else to explain it. God uses a means to an end. God chooses the best possible means to achieve the desired end goal. Try to look beyond this physical life we live and maybe you will see losing a leg (or any severe temporary experience) is nothing compared to the spiritual life we will have. Consider perhaps losing a physical leg could even result in a positive influence on our spiritual character?

Peace out...
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Old 04-11-2010, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Earth, Milky Way
290 posts, read 331,967 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
How do we know this is all not an eternally recurring thing ala the Hindu cosmology?Something like a trillion years of evolution,followed by destruction,followed by a trillion years of nothing,followed by another trillion years of evolution,and on and on.Who has a clue what happened before our Big Bang?Or if there are a million other multiverses all going on concurrently and eternally?I for one don't hold to the idea that before 15 billion years ago God was just sitting around twiddling his thumbs.And this doesn't even address the fact that "time" doesn't exist outside of creation.
Haha! Exactly. I was wondering why the monotheistic religions suggest that this is what happened.
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Old 04-11-2010, 06:23 AM
 
19 posts, read 30,983 times
Reputation: 13
"What made God choose to create the Universe?"

I don't know if God does exist. But if God does exist and if "It" made the Universe I think that the main reason is: "LOVE". Give the chance, the opportunity that people and animals feel "love".
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:44 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,566,813 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpidrAkirE View Post
The Universe is somewhere between 12 and 14 billion years old, or10,000 years or less for those that follow Creationism (the age of the universe doesn't matter for the sake of this question).

God was not born and so had been doing his thing (presumably nothing, since nothing existed) in the middle of nowhere (since nothing existed), for ever. Then, Suddenly, God decided to Create a Universe.

What made him Suddenly Decide to make something? Wouldn't something have had to happen to inspire such a creation after so long doing nothing?
As a believer in God - I've never considered anything other than an infinite number of other 'things' being done in imaginable and unimaginable other realities throughout infinite eternities and existences which may or may not resemble this universe at all or time/space/matter as we know them.

Yet I find many believers assume just what you are describing above, which makes absolutely no sense (which I think was your point).
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Old 05-07-2010, 06:01 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,566,813 times
Reputation: 843
We are here for an experience in contrasts. It is but a tiny blip in infinity/eternity although it seems way too hard and long from this humans perspective.

Most believers see Creator/creation as separate - which is the skewed view from within the matrix. Once the knowledge of panENtheistic reality dawns in our minds the purpose (for this particular conscious existence) is seen to be suffering/fragility/desperation/fear contrasted against bliss/stability/peace/love.
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Old 05-12-2010, 03:34 AM
 
Location: Earth, Milky Way
290 posts, read 331,967 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
We are here for an experience in contrasts. It is but a tiny blip in infinity/eternity although it seems way too hard and long from this humans perspective.

Most believers see Creator/creation as separate - which is the skewed view from within the matrix. Once the knowledge of panENtheistic reality dawns in our minds the purpose (for this particular conscious existence) is seen to be suffering/fragility/desperation/fear contrasted against bliss/stability/peace/love.
Ah ok...
So, from your opinion, what is the point in creating humans so that they can experience contrast?
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