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The issue with that is that it suggests that God has Ego. Ego is what distinguishes us as humans and separates us from our Spiritual Nature. Therefore, logically, God cannot have Ego and therefore, could not have Created the Universe to demonstrate his glory.
Asking if God can make a rock so heavy he cannot lift, is like asking if he can make a square circle.
What did he do before? If there was no time before the big bang. Maybe time is not an issue.
Why did he create the universe?
To demonstrate his glory?
There was no big bang! God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning, the end, the first and the last.
He put us here to save us!
He gave us all a choice!
He isn't demonstrating his glory! He is showing us what he can do for us by our believing in him. He wants us to be with him, be far from grief and pain.
There was no big bang! God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning, the end, the first and the last.
He put us here to save us!
He gave us all a choice!
He isn't demonstrating his glory! He is showing us what he can do for us by our believing in him. He wants us to be with him, be far from grief and pain.
He did what he did (some would disagree and say he doesn't exist), and he is what he is.
He does not have to explain himself to me...therefore I can only guess.
So if in heaven people will have knowledge of evil but there won't actually be evil, why couldn't your god have done the same in this life. Do you understand what I'm getting at here? Why couldn't your god have given people the knowledge of evil instead of actually having evil that causes people to suffer horribly?
First, sorry this is so long. I am in major ramble-mode because it's really late at night.
Hey there, I like you and I love your questions. and I think legoman does too. Talking about this sort of stuff with people who reason and ponder and take things apart, is really refreshing.
I think legoman and I have pretty similar beliefs. especially about the reason why we're here, etc.
Keep in mind, I'm not trying to force my views or whatever. I'm just a fellow person just sharing what is inside of me. That's all. I think everyone has their own path to walk, no matter what it is. I see it as us all being in this together. (life)
Now, your question that you presented, is something that I've also thought about. and thought and pondered and torn apart over and over. I have a few things to add to your questions:
- How WOULD we know anything if we don't experience it? By either DIRECTLY experiencing it or INDIRECTLY experiencing it by watching others? Yeah, I don't have to murder someone to know that it is evil and wrong. So I am not directly experiencing it, but I AM indirectly experiencing it by witnessing the destruction it brings. Not just for the one that was murdered but for that person's family, and the murderer's family and the murderer him or herself. And I'm directly experiencing it when I "murder". (not physically murder... but kill other things like... other people's hopes, or put them down and injure their spirit, or do anything that harms another being.) Now we are all in this together. For us to INDIRECTLY experience it, someone must DIRECTLY experience it. That's why we're all in this together and we are all one. What affects one affects us all. It all trickles down. But the good thing is, all the bad is on the path to destruction. The affects of NON-love are REAL, but temporary because they will one day be turned around. A lot of non-love is turned around in this life. When people focus on love.
If we didn't EXPERIENCE things, I mean really, truly EXPERIENCE them, and KNOW that they are the true, REAL causes and effects, we would never GET IT. It HAS to be felt in the heart, in the mind, in the soul for it's MEANING and LESSONS and KNOWLEDGE to be PART of us. Part of our souls. I mean... there is so much in this life that we compare things to and relate to. We are living in this contrast. This is like the BEGINNING of us.
This life on earth perhaps is just our BEGINNING. When we were babies, we experienced all this weird stuff: lights/being in darkness. Having hunger/being nourished. people's voices, being held, etc. As we grew older, things started to make more sense. We get older, we're understanding taste and touch and smell and hearing, etc. The things we see are starting to come in focus. We get older we keep learning, we are just constantly learning our whole lives. The BIGGEST thing is LOVE. If God truly IS LOVE. Then LOVE is the MOST IMPORTANT thing for us to learn. We HAVE to understand what is NOT love in our quest to learning love. There is no way around it. I very strongly feel that EVERY SINGLE life is crucial. I believe that we are each learning a small part, so that in the end, all of these parts will make up the WHOLE PICTURE. Each life lived will TEACH us ALL something about LOVE, the power of love. and the destruction of non-love. Every instance of non-love that has happened will be eventually overcome by love. Every instance of non-love will be overturned by love. We're all in this together. From those who walked the FURTHEST in the darkness to those who walked the furthest AWAY from it. The "books of life"... hmmm. To me, I see that as every single life. And every single life lived will be a TESTIMONY (again) to the power of love and the destructive nature of non-love. I think it's so NON-LOVE (darkness, whatever you want to call it) will have run it's course, and will be seen for what it is (just some stupid idiotic destructive thing that does NOT benefit us at ALL!) It's like it has to just run it's course, so we can BE DONE with it once and for all. So it never rears it's ugly head again. WE HAVE to experience it, so we will ALL FULLY understand what LOVE is and it's EXTRAORDINARY POWER. Love conquers all. Love can and WILL overpower and overcome every last shread of darkness. WE can't FULLY live until we get this out of our way first. Does that make sense?
Last edited by .sparrow.; 04-02-2010 at 01:11 AM..
Ok, I'm being a little sneaky and breaking this up into two posts in the hopes that folks won't just "aww man, forget this, I'm not reading this stinkin' novel of a post.. *scroll scroll scroll*) lol.
If you watch a movie, and something saddens you... it's not because you think the sad thing is really happening. It's because you can relate it to something sad in your own life. You can FEEL it because you have experienced sadness in your own life. And since you have that experience, that true, real, experience, you can be indirectly affected by things as well. But you have to experience things yourself FIRST. I so hope I'm making sense.
Man this is so hard to put into words!
About God doing evil: For me, I have a different view on the OT. Right now, where I am at, it appears to me that the OT was mankind's dark views of God. This is a whole other huge topic, but I see MANKIND murdering and killing in the NAME of God. If it's not love, then it's not from God. Ok, I better stop there because this would turn into a REALLY huge post if I keep going on that topic and I don't want to get off topic! Will have to come back to that later on another thread or something.
Maybe... when we die, we are really waking up.
Maybe this life is somewhat like a dream.
Perhaps. I don't know, that's just something that pops in my head from time to time. What you do in your dream... you experience it fully, but when you wake up you realize it didn't ACTUALLY happen. hmmm.
ok, it's 2:30 in the morning... I need to go to bed. lol.
One more thing... about being a baby. Y'know, you didn't know what the heck that thing was at first. You couldn't even SEE IT! It was just some kind of a blob creature that kept messing with you (changing you, putting clothes on you, washing you, feeding you and you didn't know what the heck ANY of this stuff was that was happening to you really was, or who this blob creature that you could barely even see was). But slowly but surely that "blob" started to come in focus, and it was your mom. Slowly but surely you started to understand who your mom was. Slowly but surely this thing you didn't understand, or what was happening to you... slowly starts to make sense. And you start to understand that your mom loves you. And your affection for her grows. and grows and grows... the more you understand of HER love. Maybe as we are going through all of this stuff here in this life... even as babies, the importance of learning LOVE starts RIGHT AWAY.
Maybe we're just still babies in the grand scheme of things...
and God (who right now is kind of an out of focus blob for most) is just slowly, slowly, slowly coming into focus. for all of us.
Just because someone doesn't believe in God right now... y'know.. I have to say. There are many many atheists that I have met that seem CLOSER to God than some who CLAIM to KNOW God. Sorry, I don't mean to sound condescending to atheists... I understand you don't believe in God and I respect that. (But I do believe in God so that's the only way I can put that into words, y'know?) Anyway, it's what is in the heart that matters. The more you LOVE the closer you are to God. IMHO. The closer you are to understanding God. And the easier you'll recognize Him when you see Him.
JUST MY OPINION!
again, don't mean to offend anyone or seem condescending, that's not my intent at all!!
ramble at ya later..
My mind goes in a weird directions this time of night.
And I don't think I'm explaining this stuff thats in my heart very well.
I better go. before this gets even more discombobulated.
I have a feeling I'm going to have really weird bizarro dreams tonight.
about blobs.
- How WOULD we know anything if we don't experience it? By either DIRECTLY experiencing it or INDIRECTLY experiencing it by watching others? Yeah, I don't have to murder someone to know that it is evil and wrong. So I am not directly experiencing it, but I AM indirectly experiencing it by witnessing the destruction it brings. Not just for the one that was murdered but for that person's family, and the murderer's family and the murderer him or herself...For us to INDIRECTLY experience it, someone must DIRECTLY experience it.
Good Morning sparrow - hope you slept well without blobby dreams
Thanks for explaining your understanding. Maybe you can help me understand this:
As you said, we have to experience suffering, either directly or indirectly, so as to understand love - someone had to suffer directly so that we can experience indirect suffering. We are all supposed to reach the point of Unconditional Godly Love, Forgiveness...etc. How are we all expected to reach the SAME PLACE when we have all had DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES? Take terrorism (something we have all experienced - directly or indirectly): how does forgiving a terrorist, who may have killed a relative, friend, partner, compare to forgiving a friend who betrayed, or a husband/wife who has fallen in love with someone else? Sure it's easy to develop unconditional love if people in my life are kind and generous...this might not be the case for someone living in a ghetto...
With such different experiences, how are we all supposed to reach the same conclusion?
Yep, you were right sparrow. It is a long post . But I think it can be covered by just answering the following.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
- How WOULD we know anything if we don't experience it?
...and the answer is.....exactly the same way in which Logoman said it is going to be done in his heaven. So in effect, the question still stands. If in heaven we will have the knowledge of sin without having to directly experience sin, why couldn't that be the situation here and now? If you are saying that we cant know something without actually experiencing it then that must also apply in your heaven...or am I missing something?
Quote:
If we didn't EXPERIENCE things, I mean really, truly EXPERIENCE them, and KNOW that they are the true, REAL causes and effects, we would never GET IT.
So how is it going to be done in your heaven? You appear to agree with Legoman when he says that in his heaven we won't have to have the experience of something in order to get the knowledge of it. I don't understand why your god is perfectly capable of giving the knowledge of something without having to experience it in one place but not in another.
You really don't have to guess. It's all in his word.
The Bible.
The Bible does an awful lot of contradicting though...so maybe we are left guessing...
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I think everyone has their own path to walk, no matter what it is. I see it as us all being in this together. (life)
lol.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13561505
. But I think it can be covered by just answering the following.
