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They are all scholars. Young is the most famous of the 3. Ever hear of Young's Concordance? He also has a Bible translation as well. He's very well known.
Did you read my post on church history? Any thoughts?
Last edited by jeffncandace; 06-27-2007 at 10:06 AM..
Reason: adding a question
"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."
a. Repent therefore: As he did in his first sermon (Acts 2:38), Peter calls upon the crowd to repent. He is telling them to turn around in their thinking and actions.
i. Repentance does not describe being sorry, but describes the act of turning around. And as he used it in chapter two, here also Peter makes repent a word of hope. You have done wrong, but you can turn around to get it right with God!
b. And be converted: Conversion is a work God does in us. Being a Christian is not "turning over a new leaf," it is being a new creation in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17).
c. Blotted out has the idea of wiping ink off of a document. Ink in the ancient world had no acid content and didn't "bite" into the paper. It could almost always be wiped off with a damp cloth. Peter is saying that God will wipe away our record of sin just like that!
d. What are the times of refreshing Peter spoke of? He is referring to the time when Jesus returns and rules the earth in righteousness. Peter goes so far as to say, "that He may send Jesus Christ," thus implying that if the Jews as a nation repented, God the Father would send Jesus to return in glory.
i. Peter makes it clear that Jesus will remain in heaven until the times of restoration of all things, and since the repentance of Israel is one of the all things, there is some sense in which the return of Jesus in glory will not happen until Israel repents.
ii. Peter is essentially offering Israel the opportunity to hasten the return of Jesus by embracing Him on a national level, something that must happen before Jesus will return (Matthew 23:37-39; Romans 11:25-27).
iii. One may raise the hypothetical question, if the Jews of that day would have received the gospel on a national level, then would Jesus have returned way back then? Hypothetically, this may have been the case, but there is no point in speculating about something that didn't happen!
James 5. (10-13) The serious matter of obeying all of God's commands.
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
a. Whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all: James here guards us against a selective obedience, the sort that will pick and choose which commands of God should be obeyed and which could be safely disregarded.
i. We can't say, "I like God's command against murder, so I'll keep that one. But I don't like His command against adultery, so I will disregard it." God cares about the whole law.
ii. The whole law must be kept if one will be justified by the law. One ancient Rabbi taught: "If a man perform all the commandments, save one, he is guilty of all and each; to break one precept is to defy God who commanded the whole." (Adamson)
b. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty: We are under the law of liberty. It has liberty, yet it is still a law that must be obeyed and that we will be judged by at the judgment seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10).
c. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy: As those who will be judged by the law of liberty, we should always show mercy to others by refraining from partiality. The mercy we show will be extended to us again on the day of judgment, and that mercy triumphs over judgment.
i. James is relating another principle of Jesus from the Sermon on the Mount: For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. (Matthew 7:2)
This truth is not new kay. See my post about church history. Does this mean that the men who have tried to exegete the scriptures and found a different meaning are not godly? And are not faithful?
No, absolutely not. Let me first say that some of your arguments are inference made by what we call an "argument from silence." The creeds and all didn't necessarily mention it one way or the other. Or a certain list of heresies didn't include it.
You are always going to have people on one side of the argument and others on the other. But they are not both right. I would just challenge anyone in question about the doctrine to get a Bible, read through it, especially the new testament (so you don't have to wade through history and a lot of material that is not relevant to this topic) and see what your conclusion is reading the Bible contextually.
"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."
a. Repent therefore: As he did in his first sermon (Acts 2:38), Peter calls upon the crowd to repent. He is telling them to turn around in their thinking and actions.
i. Repentance does not describe being sorry, but describes the act of turning around. And as he used it in chapter two, here also Peter makes repent a word of hope. You have done wrong, but you can turn around to get it right with God!
b. And be converted: Conversion is a work God does in us. Being a Christian is not "turning over a new leaf," it is being a new creation in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17).
c. Blotted out has the idea of wiping ink off of a document. Ink in the ancient world had no acid content and didn't "bite" into the paper. It could almost always be wiped off with a damp cloth. Peter is saying that God will wipe away our record of sin just like that!
d. What are the times of refreshing Peter spoke of? He is referring to the time when Jesus returns and rules the earth in righteousness. Peter goes so far as to say, "that He may send Jesus Christ," thus implying that if the Jews as a nation repented, God the Father would send Jesus to return in glory.
i. Peter makes it clear that Jesus will remain in heaven until the times of restoration of all things, and since the repentance of Israel is one of the all things, there is some sense in which the return of Jesus in glory will not happen until Israel repents.
ii. Peter is essentially offering Israel the opportunity to hasten the return of Jesus by embracing Him on a national level, something that must happen before Jesus will return (Matthew 23:37-39; Romans 11:25-27).
iii. One may raise the hypothetical question, if the Jews of that day would have received the gospel on a national level, then would Jesus have returned way back then? Hypothetically, this may have been the case, but there is no point in speculating about something that didn't happen!
James 5. (10-13) The serious matter of obeying all of God's commands.
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
a. Whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all: James here guards us against a selective obedience, the sort that will pick and choose which commands of God should be obeyed and which could be safely disregarded.
i. We can't say, "I like God's command against murder, so I'll keep that one. But I don't like His command against adultery, so I will disregard it." God cares about the whole law.
ii. The whole law must be kept if one will be justified by the law. One ancient Rabbi taught: "If a man perform all the commandments, save one, he is guilty of all and each; to break one precept is to defy God who commanded the whole." (Adamson)
b. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty: We are under the law of liberty. It has liberty, yet it is still a law that must be obeyed and that we will be judged by at the judgment seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10).
c. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy: As those who will be judged by the law of liberty, we should always show mercy to others by refraining from partiality. The mercy we show will be extended to us again on the day of judgment, and that mercy triumphs over judgment.
i. James is relating another principle of Jesus from the Sermon on the Mount: For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. (Matthew 7:2)
So what is the point here? If it is that we are to take this all literally, then I would say that just about NO ONE will end up in heaven! We have to adhere to the right laws, and makes sure we don't break one or we are guilty of them all! Where does grace come in? Where is the balance?
No, absolutely not. Let me first say that some of your arguments are inference made by what we call an "argument from silence." The creeds and all didn't necessarily mention it one way or the other. Or a certain list of heresies didn't include it.
kay, this doesn't make sense. The creeds that were specifically naming heresies did not mention Universalism, which we also know was believed by "the mass of men". Wouldn't they have done so if so many were believing a heresy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay
You are always going to have people on one side of the argument and others on the other. But they are not both right. I would just challenge anyone in question about the doctrine to get a Bible, read through it, especially the new testament (so you don't have to wade through history and a lot of material that is not relevant to this topic) and see what your conclusion is reading the Bible contextually.
The King James Bible erroneously translates the word “Sheol” as Hell a total of 31 times in the Old Testament, thus setting a foundation for that doctrine in the New Testament as well as the majority of Bible translations to follow the KJV. Even so, most new translations have completely eliminated Hell from the Old Testament, as honest and better scholarship has demanded. The Jewish version of the Old Testament (the Tanakh) has no concept of Hell in it. The importance of this fact cannot be over-emphasized. If a doctrine does not appear as seed form in the books of the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms, it cannot fairly be taught as a major biblical doctrine, if indeed it can be taught as biblical at all! This is the ultimate in "context"!!!
Whew, I got distracted over there on that "camel" thread.
I do think there are "seeds" of ideas about hell in the old testament, Jeff. Again, I'll have to research the verse but there is one that clearly says, "that some will awake to eternal punishment and shame and some to eternal reward."
But even so, unless you just totally disregard what Jesus says and I know that you don't...., we must take seriously the concept of Hell. Jesus indicates over and over that it is a place to be avoided at all costs.
Whew, I got distracted over there on that "camel" thread.
I do think there are "seeds" of ideas about hell in the old testament, Jeff.
“Sheol,” the Old Testament word that is sometimes translated as Hell, only means “grave” by definition, and it is where everyone in the Old Testament went when they died–good or evil, Jew or Gentile. I implore you study this yourself. The OT says over and over that the dead "slept". Many nations surrounding Israel in the Old Testament believed in Hell-like punishment in the afterlife, for they served bloodthirsty and evil “gods,” while Israel simply taught the grave (sheol) and a hope of a resurrection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay
Again, I'll have to research the verse but there is one that clearly says, "that some will awake to eternal punishment and shame and some to eternal reward."
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Matthew 25:46. I believe this is the one you are looking for?
Both the word "eternal" and "everlasting' here are from "aionios", which as we have already discussed is derived from "aion", which means "age". An age has a beginning and an end.
Here is absolute proof (again) from the Scriptures themselves that an aion is an AGE or a PARTICULAR PERIOD OR INTERVAL:
There was time BEFORE the aions (I Cor. 2:7, "BEFORE the eons"). Therefore, NOT eternal .
God MADE the aions (Heb. 1:2, "MAKES the eons"). Therefore, NOT eternal.
There were aions in the PAST (Col. 1:26, "hid FROM eons"). Therefore, NOT eternal.
This PRESENT age is called an aion (Gal. 1:4, "the PRESENT wicked eon"). Therefore, NOT eternal.
This PRESENT age will come to an END (Mat. 24:3, "The END [or conclusion] of the eon"). Therefore, NOT eternal.
There is coming another aion AFTER this present aion (Luke 18:30, "the eon TO COME"). Therefore, NOT eternal.
There are, in fact, coming multiples or FUTURE AIONS (Eph. 2:7, "the ONCOMING AIONS). Therefore, NOT eternal.
Some aions are even contrasted with OTHER AIONS (Eph. 3:21, "the eon OF the eons"). Therefore, NOT ETERNAL.
All aions will come to all their ENDS (I Cor. 10:11, "the CONSUMMATIONS [plural] of the eons [plural]." Therefore, obviously not possible to be eternal!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay
But even so, unless you just totally disregard what Jesus says and I know that you don't...., we must take seriously the concept of Hell. Jesus indicates over and over that it is a place to be avoided at all costs.
I absolutely agree we must take seriously the concept of hell. Hell is real, but not as we have been taught. Whatever it is, it is not God's perfect will that we go there!
So what is the point here? If it is that we are to take this all literally, then I would say that just about NO ONE will end up in heaven! We have to adhere to the right laws, and makes sure we don't break one or we are guilty of them all! Where does grace come in? Where is the balance?
Grace and mercy are from Christ Himself. The law is to point people to God because there is only ONE that could keep the law perfectly. Since we are not perfect, and cannot keep every law perfectly, we have an intercessor and advocate with the Father thru Christ. If we repent and ask for forgiveness we are right with God. That is why Jesus made the law even harder... with the "You have heard it said" statements. And why he said: Mt 5:18 - For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
Grace and mercy are from Christ Himself. The law is to point people to God because there is only ONE that could keep the law perfectly. Since we are not perfect, and cannot keep every law perfectly, we have an intercessor and advocate with the Father thru Christ. If we repent and ask for forgiveness we are right with God. That is why Jesus made the law even harder... with the "You have heard it said" statements. And why he said: Mt 5:18 - For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
Well, I can agree with all this...do you think that I do not?
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