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Old 04-04-2010, 03:03 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,399,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
Well so far there hasn't been any evidence of any Transcendent Being who "has proclaimed a Transcendent Law, where no-one has to make any decisions about which being or which law". So are you just speaking hypothetically? Or are you claiming to know of some Transcendent Being which meets that criteria?
For the purpose of staying on topic, feel free to take it as hypothetical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
None of them, in my opinion. Do you have a personal preference? In my experience, most people who follow religions and the various gods follow because of someone else's say so and don't do a lot of honest study or critical thinking.
As stated in my profile, I'm Calvinist/Reformed, so it's certainly no secret as to where I'm coming from.

I feel very sad for your experience. Blind faith is most always a bad way to proceed IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
But what honest study and application of critical thinking are you referring to? Study of History? Science? Philosophy? Metaphysics, Comparative religions?
I would suggest all of these and more...whatever it takes to get closer to the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
Mass slaughter, pillaging, kidnapping, slavery and rape of young girls? Well yes, in my opinion, these acts are immoral. Are you saying that you believe they are not immoral?
No, I believe that in truth they are immoral. I base this assessment on my belief in Transcendent Law established by a Transcendent Being.

Upon which basis would you base your assessment?

If you've followed the discussion you must know by now that relative morality basically equates to no morality. What makes the moral values of one person, state or society superior to any other person, state or society?

In other words, if it's simply your opinion - so what?

...how would you presume yourself to be in any position to cast aspersions on the Bible, God or anyone else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
In my opinion, she's doing fine without any help.
Like I said, I'm sure she appreciates the moral support.
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:30 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,179,007 times
Reputation: 14878
Now we are getting somewhere!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax
Mass slaughter, pillaging, kidnapping, slavery and rape of young girls? Well yes, in my opinion, these acts are immoral. Are you saying that you believe they are not immoral?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post

No, I believe that in truth they are immoral. I base this assessment on my belief in Transcendent Law established by a Transcendent Being.
Is the argument that it actually takes a god given law to recognize that mass murder, pillage, kidnapping and rape of young girls (or boys for that matter) is a moral wrong? Are Christians so bereft of judgment and human compassion that they can only discern this sort of evil through god's marching orders?

Talk about giving atheist a well deserved since of superiority!
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:34 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,399,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
Yes, I did read your post. Nazism is religiously based. Read Mein Kamf if you don't believe me. I know that requires reading something other than the church directory, but it will show you that Hitler's ideology is based on a 'transcendent being.'
You assume that I haven't read Mein Kampf. Be very careful, you know what they say about what happens when you a$$ - u - me.

Silly me. I forget that everything is relative with you. Therefore, you're free to invent history and Biblical hermeneutics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
According to your logic, it is as valid as any other law. I'm not the one claiming that transcendent law is necessary for moral judgements, you are.
No Transcendent Being means no Transcendent law. If you want to call it "my" logic, feel free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
You're making the presumption that christianity is true, when in fact it has as the same amount of 'evidence' as any other religious ideology does.
For the purpose of this discussion we can move forward on the hypothetical. If there is no God and all morality is relative, then it logically follows that our existence is without purpose or meaning. We, as human beings, are of no more value than cockroaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
You neglect the fact that christianity has no evidence to support it, which makes it just as equally 'valid' as any other ideology based on a transcendent being.
Says you...so what? Even if I accept your premise that there is no God, relative morality is still utter nonsense and, while I would be guilty of allowing myself to be duped, my would-be premise of a Transcendent Being establishing Transcendent Law would still be eminently more reasonable and logical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
Hitler wasn't an avowed atheist and if you read all his speeches and books, you would know that he was a self professed christian. It isn't relative. You're the only one claiming morality is relative in a godless worldview, when in fact your moral stance is very relativistic.
My apologies, I keep forgetting that in your relativistic world you're free to make it up in order to suit your own personal world view template.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
This is nothing but a value judgement.
Indeed, a truthful value judgment based on Transcendent law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
You mean you think it's wrong despite what your ideology says.
No, it simply means that we disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
No, it isn't ignorance. I have bothered to come up to speed. I've actually bothered to learn something.
Yes, I imagine it is quite easy to get up to speed when you have the convenience of making it up as you go along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
I have clearly explained multiple times why I am able to levy moral judgements. You just close your eyes and ignore it.
Oh damb. There's that relativistic mindset again.
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,073 posts, read 4,976,563 times
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Tigetmax24, I'm wondering what you would do if the existence of god were conclusively disproven, thereby disproving the existence of a transcendent being. Would you think it okay to rape, murder, rob, cheat on your wife, beat your children etc. Atheists can say these things are immoral because they possess something called empathy.
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Old 04-04-2010, 06:12 PM
 
701 posts, read 659,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
Tigetmax24, I'm wondering what you would do if the existence of god were conclusively disproven, thereby disproving the existence of a transcendent being. Would you think it okay to rape, murder, rob, cheat on your wife, beat your children etc. Atheists can say these things are immoral because they possess something called empathy.
and if the existence of God was conclusively proven, would you follow His law?
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Old 04-04-2010, 06:34 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,399,605 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
I'm wondering what you would do if the existence of god were conclusively disproven, thereby disproving the existence of a transcendent being. Would you think it okay to rape, murder, rob, cheat on your wife, beat your children etc. Atheists can say these things are immoral because they possess something called empathy.
Well, to be brutally honest, I would have to fall in line with the views of Nietzsche, Sartre and Russell. If there is no God, life is just one giant metaphorical game of "King of the Mountain." The only rule is that there are no rules and whatever it takes to further my own wealth and power would become the primary goal of my existence. If we're to be honest, it's the only logical alternative.
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Old 04-04-2010, 06:36 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,179,007 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
and if the existence of God was conclusively proven, would you follow His law?
With the exception of Keeping the Sabbath holy, not worshipping other gods, and other god egocentric strictures, the average human regardless to where they live or what god or law they ascribe to are following "god's" law already, which is the principle fact that undercuts the need for a god in the first place.
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Old 04-04-2010, 07:27 PM
 
701 posts, read 659,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
With the exception of Keeping the Sabbath holy, not worshipping other gods, and other god egocentric strictures, the average human regardless to where they live or what god or law they ascribe to are following "god's" law already, which is the principle fact that undercuts the need for a god in the first place.

So, if He created all things and is the supreme authority, that still doesn't give Him the right to determine what will fly in His universe? You would still assert that you are better able to determine what is good for you, than God?
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Old 04-04-2010, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,073 posts, read 4,976,563 times
Reputation: 2480
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Well, to be brutally honest, I would have to fall in line with the views of Nietzsche, Sartre and Russell. If there is no God, life is just one giant metaphorical game of "King of the Mountain." The only rule is that there are no rules and whatever it takes to further my own wealth and power would become the primary goal of my existence. If we're to be honest, it's the only logical alternative.
I think your misrepresenting(or misconstrueing) what Nietzche, Russel and Sartre were talking about. They didn't hold a philosophy that without god morality ceases to exist and people would only act upon furthering themselves without concern for others. It seems that the problem with your argument is that you assume that people are all psycopaths. This is not so and society would be doomed to failure. Barring psycopaths/sociopaths, everyone has empathy. This is why hedonism isn't the logical alternative to transcendent morality. For example, most people refrain from harmful actions like murder etc. because it harms someone else and they don't want to cause that harm to others. This is why the genocidal dictators like Stalin/Hitler/Pol Pot differ from others; they lack the characteristic of empathy.
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Old 04-04-2010, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,073 posts, read 4,976,563 times
Reputation: 2480
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
and if the existence of God was conclusively proven, would you follow His law?
That depends. I'm not going to keep slaves etc. even if god's existence is proven. The problem with saying that without god everything is permissable, is that it assumes that if someone holds no belief in god then they devolve into hedonism and sociopathic behavior. It follows that if the individual claiming this were to lose their belief in god, then they would also lose their sense of right and wrong.
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