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We are here discussing religion -- I do not take this personally at all. You may say anything whatever about atheism, I would not feel it as personal attacks at all -- you should be like me. There is no reason to feel personal about a discussion topic. A person is much more than one thing he does -- being it religion or whatever ...
Sorry if my tone came across as anything other than calm. I was sincere in asking you those questions. They were not meant to be rhetorical.
I think group support and the emotional anchor provided by religion to believers would be difficult to put a price on. When it all comes down to it, I think religion gives more than it takes.Otherwise, it wouldn't be here still.
That's great for people that are willing to believe, but I can't. The stuff I know does not jive with the stuff religions teach and I cannot bring myself to buy into it.
So for me, like an atheist it would not make sense; the price of admission is not worth the experience. But for those who invest emotionally into religion the reverse is true, and I'm sure they can't imagine how someone can live without it. There literally is no right or wrong here; you have no idea what I need and I have no idea what you need when it comes to spirituality. Everyone should be able to go their own way.
1. Monetary costs-at least when it is spent on entertainment you get something in return! Entertainment! And each individual does not spend billions on it. I think the o.p. was talking more on a personal basis. I wish I had the thousands of dollars back that I dumped into church!
2. Time costs-All the time my husband and I spent in church could have been spent on home improvments, taking the kids to the park, or going to school, which by the way is forbidden in many churches. (college takes time away from God said!)
3. Emotional costs-I was constantly worried when I was in church! I never felt good enough. All the rules and regulations. And I never felt that "feeling" that got everyone else jumping and singing. So what the hell was wrong with me?! Guess I wasn't good enough for this "god".
4. Life costs-god I wish I had that time back. So much of my life was wasted on that crap!
I am terribly sorry you had such a bad experience at the church you attended. I do wish however that people would not take their bad experiences and project them onto all other religious experiences as a whole. The point I was trying to make was that people waste time and money regardless of religion. Of course individuals don't spend billions on entertainment, they also don't spend it on religion, who can other than Bill Gates and a select few billionaires. If you were to tally up all the dollars given to entertainment and all the dollars given to the church, and then divide that number by all the hungary fed, poor clothed, and sick healed, by those same dollars, the church would come out as a far better place to put your money than in the entertainment industry, at least as far as the betterment of society is concerned.
I think group support and the emotional anchor provided by religion to believers would be difficult to put a price on. When it all comes down to it, I think religion gives more than it takes.Otherwise, it wouldn't be here still.
That's great for people that are willing to believe, but I can't. The stuff I know does not jive with the stuff religions teach and I cannot bring myself to buy into it.
So for me, like an atheist it would not make sense; the price of admission is not worth the experience. But for those who invest emotionally into religion the reverse is true, and I'm sure they can't imagine how someone can live without it. There literally is no right or wrong here; you have no idea what I need and I have no idea what you need when it comes to spirituality. Everyone should be able to go their own way.
Very good post. This is pretty much exactly how I feel.
Paying for religion is like paying for drugs -- "feeling good" may not justify the costs.
I'm curious what experience you have with religion. Have you ever been involved in a church? Do you speak from experience, or are you just spouting vitriolic?
Although the gains from a religion are debatable from an atheist's standpoint -- the costs are obvious from anyone's standpoint -- it could be tremendous if you think about it.
Monetary costs. Followers must pay -- excluding donations to various causes (this part, atheists do it too). If you add up the lifetime spending on religious matters -- it adds up to tremendous amount that could be used otherwise more productively.
Time costs. Followers spend lots time in their lifetimes on religion -- the time could be spend otherwise more productively: on family time, sitting down at a Starbucks instead of driving and parking at church.
Emotional costs. Being deluded, worrying about going to hell, robbed of free-thinking, disappointed by the prayers ...
Life costs. Followers sometimes are mislead by religions, and may sacrifice their own lives and health ...
1. Atheists must pay to belong to thier formal atheist Associations too. They collect dues , free will offerings, for materials and guest speakers...the same Christian Churches do. Many use the money to try and have crosses taken down from village water towers -- maybe atheist dues could be used more wisely and productively.
2. Atheists spend all thier time in their religious faith walk . Instead of trying to convince themselves they are nothing but glamorized pond scum from dead chemicals that magically assembled to become themselves...that they should go to Starbucks or take the family out to a funfilled Christian event .
3. Willfully suppressing ones knowledge of God the Designer/Creator so they can freely think of excuses not to follow him...is the epitomie of emotional cost. Trying to convince oneself that there is no ultimate moral accountability for ones actions so as to free one up...may be freethinking, but a deceptive one at that.
4. There is a big sacrifice to atheist followers who dont know their ultimate purpose in being alive , dont care to know their meaning , and live daily with a defeatist apathetic mindset because a paycheck and booze on the weekends isnt enough to fill the void deep in their heart. The sacrifice is in the way of a wasted superficial life . Yes, oftentimes people who have no realization of their intrinsic worth, dignity, and ultimate purpose ...do in fact take their lives to put an end to the dreary existence built on hopelessness -- the secular religion of atheism/humanism has claimed the lives of many adherrants for these very reasons both by ordinary atheists and the super rich kind who by an outsiders observation...had everything going for them. , yet it was building their life on the wrong foundation. Many are misled by promise-filled secular religions.
Im glad my hope is built on nothing less, than Jesus CHrist and his righteousness...the free undeserved way to Heaven and to be right with God . My permanent retirement is out of this world.
Last edited by 007.5; 04-05-2010 at 06:25 PM..
Reason: add
Although the gains from a religion are debatable from an atheist's standpoint -- the costs are obvious from anyone's standpoint -- it could be tremendous if you think about it.
Monetary costs. Followers must pay -- excluding donations to various causes (this part, atheists do it too). If you add up the lifetime spending on religious matters -- it adds up to tremendous amount that could be used otherwise more productively.
In "religion" as a whole, the followers must pay? I know for a fact that the vast majority of Christian churches do not require "payment". There is tithing, which is a free will offering, and I don't know of churches that require "payment". My church has never canceled someone's membership because of lack of payment - in fact, they don't even know all of what everyone pays, because other than checks they have no idea where the cash offerings come from. The only reason they keep track of anyone's checks is as a service to those donors because they want a statement for tax purposes.
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Originally Posted by Vic235
Time costs. Followers spend lots time in their lifetimes on religion -- the time could be spend otherwise more productively: on family time, sitting down at a Starbucks instead of driving and parking at church.
Most people spend a grand total of 3 hours a week on going to Church, if that. Some spend more time in activities and extra services/meetings during the week, but that's not all or even most. There are many who go to Church only on Easter and Christmas or special occasions.
In a way, you could figure people, especially Christians, are spending 100% of their time on their religion, because they should be living their faith in everything they do. But that's the same for everyone with their respective belief sets, even atheists.
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Originally Posted by Vic235
Emotional costs. Being deluded, worrying about going to hell, robbed of free-thinking, disappointed by the prayers ...
Delusion is not limited to religious people, and the atheists in this forum make that very clear. As for free-thinking, I'd rather have my beliefs than conform to the concept of "free-thinking" to which you conform. "Free-thinking™" is the misnomer atheists give their lockstep religious thinking. Kind of how sleazy Joe the used car salesman who lies to every customer might choose to call his business "Honest Joe's Used Cars".
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Originally Posted by Vic235
Life costs. Followers sometimes are mislead by religions, and may sacrifice their own lives and health ...
What about the people misled by atheism and science and sacrifice their own lives and health? For example, people who trusted "science" about 'Redux', 'Seldane', 'Propulsid', 'Rezulin'...the list could go on and on...
1. Atheists must pay to belong to thier formal atheist Associations too. They collect dues , free will offerings, for materials and guest speakers...the same Christian Churches do. Many use the money to try and have crosses taken down from village water towers -- maybe atheist dues could be used more wisely and productively.
This is a ridiculous assertion? What formal atheist associations? The rest is just too silly to address.
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2. Atheists spend all thier time in their religious faith walk . Instead of trying to convince themselves they are nothing but glamorized pond scum from dead chemicals that magically assembled to become themselves...that they should go to Starbucks or take the family out to a funfilled Christian event .
Now we are being funny, right?
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3. Willfully suppressing ones knowledge of God the Designer/Creator so they can freely think of excuses not to follow him...is the epitomie of emotional cost. Trying to convince oneself that there is no ultimate moral accountability for ones actions so as to free one up...may be freethinking, but a deceptive one at that.
Willfully? Actually I willfully tried to believe for almost twenty years...A complete waste of my time. All I got out of it was a feeling of not meeting god's standards, until I realize it was all bogus. Nothing willful about non belief. Most atheists were once members of a religion, so we know both side of the coin.
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4. There is a big sacrifice to atheist followers who dont know their ultimate purpose in being alive , dont care to know their meaning , and live daily with a defeatist apathetic mindset because a paycheck and booze on the weekends isnt enough to fill the void deep in their heart. The sacrifice is in the way of a wasted superficial life . Yes, oftentimes people who have no realization of their intrinsic worth, dignity, and ultimate purpose ...do in fact take their lives to put an end to the dreary existence built on hopelessness -- the secular religion of atheism/humanism has claimed the lives of many adherrants for these very reasons both by ordinary atheists and the super rich kind who by an outsiders observation...had everything going for them. , yet it was building their life on the wrong foundation. Many are misled by promise-filled secular religions.
Even more insults and misinformation begin to flow...Incidentally far more religious take their own lives than atheists...
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Among the most common faith groups in the U.S., Protestants have the highest suicide rate; Roman Catholics are next; Jews have the lowest rate. Followers of religions that strongly prohibit suicide, like Christianity and Islam, have a higher suicide rate than those religions which have no strong prohibition (e.g. Buddhism and Hinduism.) Facts about suicide
If we have inferior morals, then explain to me why the religious make up almost the total population of prisons and atheists account for LESS than one percent.
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Im glad my hope is built on nothing less, than Jesus CHrist and his righteousness...the free undeserved way to Heaven and to be right with God . My permanent retirement is out of this world.
If you are so content and happy, why are insulting and spreading misinformation about atheists, when you obviously know little or nothing about us?
If you are so content and happy, why are insulting and spreading misinformation about atheists, when you obviously know little or nothing about us?
I think the same could be said about the OP. I'm hoping Vic will answer my question(s) from post #16.
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