God vs no God (believing, Christ, Allah, evidence)

[slingshot]

About 4-5 years ago my wife had missplaced her keys. We started searching in the obvious places. In her purse, in the car, in my car, in the pockets of the clothes that we wore the day before, etc. No luck. The search expanded to all the rooms in our 5 room house. We searched the kitchen drawers, cabinets, and under the stove and fridge. We searched the bathroom cabinets, the clothes hamper, under the clawfoot bathtub. We started searching the two bedrooms. Under the beds, under the pillows, between the mattresses, closets, in our pockets hanging in the closets. We searched the living room everywhere. Under the sofa cushins, under the sofas, behind the curtins. One particular stuffed chair in the living room was kinda in bad shape so we had a tapestry on it and two small pillows in each corner of the chair. In our search, I had taken off the pillows, taken off the tapestry, searched down in the cracks where all the change and popcorn usually hangs out, and under the chair itself. I had done this not once, but three times! After about three hours of searching. We decided it was time to go out on the porch and smoke a cigarette. Take a break and regroup, if you will. While out on the porch, my wife said a little prayer. "Lord, can you please help me find my keys. I really need those keys and I would really appreciate it if you could help, amen". After our smoke, we decided to resume our search. We walked back into the house and guess what? Those keys were laying on that chair, in the open, between the two pillows. Remember, I had taken that chair apart three times. If there is no God, will someone explain to me how those keys ended up on that chair?

[KCfromNC]

God was obviously punishing you for something you did. I'd be very worried about what's coming next.

[GldnRule]

Originally Posted by KCfromNC

You're confusing inductive reasoning with faith. One's based on evidence and the other, as you claim below, has nothing to do with it.



So you accept Allah is real and Muhammad is his prophet, based on the slightest of possibility that it is true? I doubt, but yet you expect others to use this standard when deciding on your pet religious hunch. Concepts of truth seem to get very fuzzy when talking about gods - some consistency would be nice.



How do you know for sure that it's a matter of faith? Seems like an awfully convenient cop-out.

You know KC...one thing I am losing faith in...is your ability to argue your position...especially relative to how well some of the other Atheists do it.

It matters not what "God" one has faith in...they should not be subjected to people declaring them unable to think rationally because they cannot show empirical evidence of their God. It would be like saying a person about to get married is thinking irrationally because they don't have empirical evidence of the surety of the endurance of the relationship. Of course they don't...but choosing that mate is a personal decision they have made for themselves based on their intuition and perception...and to tell them they are irrational would be an insult. Same with someone choosing a religious belief for themselves. How can you not see that? Saying, "People who believe in a God they can't prove exists through empirical evidence are thinking irrationally", is an insult to 9 out of 10 people on the planet. I submit...Anyone who doesn't see that is greatly lacking in wisdom...and couth. Is THAT "consistent" enough for ya?

And don't get me on the "FAITH" thing. You've debated me on that before. Giving full merit to ANY information is a matter of FAITH...for NOTHING is 100% infallible. So yeah...it's a matter of faith. Just like the FAITH you have your "scientific principles" are correct...cuz they might not be...and if any were found to be in error it wouldn't be the first time...or the last time...some were found to be wrong. Though I will admit...that "Law of Gravity" and "Theory of Relativity" seem reeeeeeally sound...almost as sound as the surety in the existence of a God the scientists who discovered them had.

[slingshot]

Originally Posted by KCfromNC

God was obviously punishing you for something you did. I'd be very worried about what's coming next.

Okay, let's say that's true. Now answer my question. "If there is no God, will someone explain to me how those keys ended up on that chair?"

[coosjoaquin]

Originally Posted by GldnRule

My frustration...and thus my comparison to the schoolyard taunt...lies in the almost categorical use of the statement (the post I addressed was nothing BUT that statement) that since the existence of God can't be proved empirically...one would be irrational to think so. I wasn't acting...I was reacting.

THAT'S the insult...especially since I'm sure the poster knows 90% of people believe there IS a God.

Why does it even bother you that belief in a god is not rational? It's faith. You don't do it because you need evidence or because you can convince yourself that it's rational, you do it in spite of that. If you talk about the merits of being faithfull and then get hung up on being called irrational because you are using faith then that just comes off as not being truthful.

Originally Posted by GldnRule

In case no one hipped you to it...many people have been TRIED and CONVICTED of murder (some even given the death penalty) on circumstantial/indirect evidence ALONE.

Googling "wrongful executions" yields lot's of results. More proof that simply using circumstantal/indirect evidence to make these(massive) decisions very often leads to wrong conclusions. It makes believing in a specific god based solely on that seem even less rational, so what's your point?

Originally Posted by GldnRule

You are right about the God vs No God question being different...but draw, IMO, the absolutely wrong conclusion. Since the consequences of dismissing a God that does actually exist would be so dire...the standard of evidence should be no more than "the slightest of possibility", not, "beyond all doubt based on the most stringent of hard evidence".

So you believe in every single religion then? You are a polytheist and a monotheist at the same time? No. Pascal's wager is tripe, I gave a list of problems in post #66 which you ignored. It's still there if you or anyone else wishes to see.

Originally Posted by GldnRule

I don't "hate" The Scientific Method...I just have enough wisdom to realize it's required application is veeeeeeery limited...and almost never required in any "living life" decisions.

Actually it's a matter of wanting to keep a double standard. The question of whether there is a god or not is not a "living life" decision(whatever you define that to be). Is this just something you say as an attempt to justify the double standard?

Originally Posted by GldnRule

And I have a problem with it's demand, in any way whatsoever, as a requirement of what is KNOWN to be a matter of FAITH in a supernatural entity...and held very dearly by most.

Right so why does it bother you to find people call it irrational when it's a system that doesn't stand up to scrutiny and that has been wrong many times?

Originally Posted by GldnRule

THAT is what gives me the attitude....Those, while KNOWING God can't be proved by empirical evidence...declare belief without it, to be people thinking irrationally. Tell me you think I'm wrong...even tell me you think I am wasting my time...then state your position of disbelief...but don't just put up a naked post insulting me by questioning my ability to think rationally because I believe in God...and not expect a counter offensive.

A counter offensive? I assume you mean explaining point by point why it's rational while countering reasons given out for why it's not. Not calling a group of people poopyheads by comparing them to highschool children.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by slingshot

Okay, let's say that's true. Now answer my question. "If there is no God, will someone explain to me how those keys ended up on that chair?"

I had an important meeting this morning. I got in the car, turned the key and it wouldn't start. I put my head in my hands and and said "Oh Buddha"...tried the keys again and it started. If there is no Buddha, how do you explain how that engine started when it wouldn't before?

[agnostic soldier]

Originally Posted by GldnRule

I don't know where you are from...but where I am from (Northeast USA, Earth) indirect and circumstantial evidence weighs as heavily on a day to day basis as empirical evidence. Most decisions in life are made based on intuition and perception...not on empirical evidence that has been subjected to The Scientific Method...and nobody is thought to be "irrational" for doing so. It's a standard the Nonbelievers on this board put out to argue against whether one should believe in God...but hypocritically don't require that same standard of any of the other myriad decisions they make in living life as a human being.

And therein lies the problem...the absolutely unrealistic and "inapplicable to life in general" standard of, "nothing counts unless it's empirically proven"... that seems to infect the "scientific" group. It's like they are standing there like a child in the schoolyard...all leaned forward, arms outstretched, with a look on their face like something smells bad, going, "Nyeaaah Nyeaaah, Nyeaaah Nyeaaah Nyeaaah--NOT EMPIRICALLY PROVEN, NOT EMPIRICALLY PROVEN!!!!!"

Tell ya what...apply the standard you are putting to "Belief in God" to everything else in your life...adopt no position, take no action, believe nothing, agree to nothing, and refuse to be bound by anything...that hasn't met the standard of "empirical verification".

Let me know how you make out with that.

You don't understand anything. For one, you're making the presumption that the god belief is the same as everyday decisions. This is not so. Do you believe in Allah, Zeus, Allah, Bigfoot, the FSM, IPUs, little green men, leprachauns, magical quarter gnomes, elves, nymphs, sorcerers, banshees, onis, the cerberus, dragons, ogres or the millions of other claims people make? According to your argument, you do.The standard of evidence is different for such beliefs.

Believing a friend who tells you they had bacon and eggs for breakfast is different than believing they had bacon and eggs on an alien spacecraft orbiting Saturn. The more ridiculous the claim sounds, the standard for evidence becomes higher. Claiming that an all powerful essence permeates the universe and is the source of all life and the universe is an extroadinary claim and therefore requires a much higher standard for evidence.

[dobeable]

Originally Posted by slingshot

Okay, let's say that's true. Now answer my question. "If there is no God, will someone explain to me how those keys ended up on that chair?"

God also has a sense of humour-i bet you were shocked but also laughed-

actually i remember something very similar happening to me with a set of keys-from my old mans shed-he had a gym out there i was 17 and doin a bit of bag work-i searched the whole place about 5 times,like it wasnt that big of a shed,now i'll be honest i didnt say a prayer,but i did look up to the sky with frustration -when i turned around after a few moment's of contemplating how my da was goin to kill me for loosing the keys i decided to search again and the second i looked on the leg press machine there they were as clear as day a blind bat could see where they were without effort of looking-i looked up and laughed and got the joke-thanks for bringin that memory back and actually now that i'm thinkin(better start new paragraph)...............

we were working out of town and on a building site putting gutters up and I lost the keys to the van-no way of getting home-it was at the end of the day and everyone was tired-miles away from home-i looked up to the sky"please help me find them"at that very moment i could hear this bird singing and it was a real weird song but i actually said to myself this must be a sign and not actually expecting to find anything i followed the sound of the bird while the rest of the lads went their own way to find the keys and upon amazement i cought up with the sound and couldnt beleive the keys were there on the ground in the dirt,so i picked them up as happy as a pig in $hit thanked the bird and went home-i didnt tell anyone though how i found them i kept that to myself,but why did i follow that bird,that was somethin that clicked in my head and i knew it sounded mad even when i was following it-i realy wasnt expecting to find the keys but there they were i couldnt beleive it.............coincidence maybe,fluke maybe-but did it make me feel that God is in more control than we think-yes.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by dobeable

.............coincidence maybe,fluke maybe-but did it make me feel that God is in more control than we think-yes.

Yeah! Obviously, he's more concerned about finding lost keys than he is providing rain in Africa so that kids don't die for lack of drinking water. You'd think he'd get priorities right eh? Obviously, lost keys are much more important than people who are dying like flies from starvation thirst and disease.

[dobeable]

Originally Posted by Rafius

Yeah! Obviously, he's more concerned about finding lost keys than he is providing rain in Africa so that kids don't die for lack of drinking water. You'd think he'd get priorities right eh? Obviously, lost keys are much more important than people who are dying like flies from starvation thirst and disease.

trust you to take something simple like finding a set of keys and turn it into-God hates the world......it was a presonal moment,not a very important one at that and a bit funny,

as for sending rain in africa-
you have no idea what kind of karma lies on people's heads-that could be you or me living in that condition in the next life,or maybe some rich man in this life that has the power and resources to help but chooses not too-these are only temporary bodies we are all goin to die sometime whether its starvation or old age we scannot escape it-some will suffer more than other's though and sometimes that can be looked at as a sentence-but just like any prison sentence when you time is done your free.