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Old 04-13-2010, 08:21 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,970,250 times
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dobeable if I may...

A basic timeline.

Timeline of evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
you see this is where there could be a hole in the whole thing and i dont know i could be wrong-and dont get me wrong i do beleive the body can adapt to certain thing's in the enviroment-thats why the white skin came about-certain africans developing immunity to certain things n stuff-----but,when you say it only happens every few thousand years-how many thousand years?
I am not sure where the estimate that mutations only occur on a 1,000 year period. Mutation rates vary from one species to another and one population vs anther any of which can be shorted or prolonged by environmental changes. So to lock in that mutations within a species are based simply upon a fixed date isn't, as I understand it, correct.

Quote:
how many mutations would be needed to change a single celled organism into a mammal?
I'm not sure that question can be answered without a record of the all the proceeding mutations.

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how many different living species are out there now-millions-so all their genes must have mutated to become what they are now-and not only one or two species but every species-thats alot of mutation's that dosent sound like a few every few thousand years
On that count, I would tend to think that you would be right.

Quote:
another question-what invironmental changes would be needed to cange a species-i mean does the invironment eve change that much-i know it can and has changed dramatically in the past-volcano's-meteor's and so on-and usually anything n their paths are wiped out-but animals get along fine in their environment-they al have teir tools and insticnts to survive,and if they needed something to change for the better wouldnt that need a design mechanism or plan-like evrything that needs to be "fixed"
No, it wouldn't need a "design change". Take Darwin's finches. Darwin first observed various birds whose beaks were most efficient for feeding on the local fare. It wasn't until later that he discovered that they were all finches. Those with beaks that allowed them to eat the local foods, survived, those that didn't perished. Just through natural breeding those that possessed a gene that developed a specific beak type became dominate. For example, humans can have children of various heights, but lets say that all the food available could only be reached by humans 6' or taller. Over time the shorter humans would die of starvation while those over 6' tall would survive. The dominate gene for height, overtime, would produce only humans taller than 6'.

Quote:
one more question how long did it take dinosaures to evolve into what they were and when they were wiped out did it wipe out nearly them all.
because if it did then we could betalkng only 2 billion years or something.
Dinosaurs first appeared some 260 million years ago, the estimate is that there were 500 genus and 1,000 different species and while almost all dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago, there are certainly remnants extant today, crocodiles for example are considered, with small variations, 200 million years old.


BTW-not been smart here or anything but that scientific experiment you showed me is hardly proof of the evolution of species[/quote]
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Old 04-14-2010, 07:06 AM
 
5,458 posts, read 6,702,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
fact can also mean that if it works- it works-you missed the point
I thought you said both sides needed faith - now you're saying that you can make observations to see if something is true. Which one is it?
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Old 04-14-2010, 08:21 AM
 
63,555 posts, read 39,836,934 times
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Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
I thought you said both sides needed faith - now you're saying that you can make observations to see if something is true. Which one is it?
False dichotomy fallacy.
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Old 04-14-2010, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 12,890,026 times
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Red face Even God admitted they did it by the numbers, and in "two's"!!!!!

Several theists here "knowledgeably dispute" whether mutations can result in positive changes. Here's the Wiki explanation, which as I read it pretty much jives with accepted theory. It's good enough to give the disbelievers, the awe-struck or those who can't imagine "how on Earth this could possibly happen!" an insight into the basics.

Mutation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article correctly notes that in Drosophila spp., (the ubiquitous fruit fly, and that lucky recipient of so much genetic research) only 70% of the chance mutations are lethal. 30% are mildly beneficial or neutral. In addition, the article goes on to elucidate that there is great redundancy in most organism's genomes, and a lot of that is used to "correct" bad mutations by comparing them to the correct original. But some mutations are allowed through as they provide the obvious benefit of allowing long-term evolution/improvement. The mechanisms are explained and are documented and credible because they have been studied and reproduced by legions of PhD students, researchers and the biomedical community.

Please read this before you re-enter the fray with unsupportable statements about how it all can't happen, no-how, no-way!! Also realize that you're reading the veritable teensy-tiny tip of a VERY LARGE information iceburg, and that to really criticize this stuff, you'd have to put in your time to "earn your wings", as it were. I'd say that would be about 15 - 20 years of directed study.

Otherwise, to criticize it simply because you don't like where it's going is, well...... not a very intellectually strong position, is it?

A far more detailed discussion on a specific marker follows in the two citations provided, but is presented to provide a sample of the depth and scope of modern genetic research. Again, it's far more than a bunch of obtuse morons flailing about down in the basement, and making this stuff up.

DNA Mutation Rates - An Overview and Discussion

Genome-wide Study Shed Lights On Factors That Contribute To DNA Mutations

Finally, as to doeable's thoughtful inquiry:

Quote:
"how many different living species are out there now-millions-so all their genes must have mutated to become what they are now-and not only one or two species but every species-thats alot of mutation's that dosent sound like a few every few thousand years"
Well....it doesn't happen serially (one after the other, like a freight train), and only once every thousand years. It builds, like tree branches off the main stem, one new species branches off to two, which branch to four, etc. Exponential growth, it's called. A quick story to clarify:

A gamester offered to try to beat the king at chess, and if he won, the king had to fill the chessboard with one grain of wheat on the first square, two on the second, four on the third, eight on the fourth, etc. Doubling each time. There's what; 64 squares on a chessboard?

The king thought for a moment and quickly concluded, without too much thought "Hey; so what if I lose. A few grains of wheat; hah! Besides, I've got God on my side, and this guy's just an obtuse, assumptive scientist-type anyhow, so what the heck; I'll play him!" He did, he lost, and the gamester ended up with the entire kingdom. Q: how many grains of wheat did the king have to provide? I'll ask the more mathematically oriented to tell us, but as a starting point, it's 2 to the 64th power. 2 X 2 X 2, 64 times.*

Even at "once every thousand years", which is far too low a number, that still allows for 14,000 generations (14 M yrs / 1000 yrs per cycle). Two to the 14,000 power? You wanna take that one on, doeable? Will it account for the necessarily number of genetic variables needed to create the millions of species we see? I'd say so. Many many many times over! ( I don't even think my scientific calculator will provide a number that large...)

(*Well OK: the chess-board answer is 1.009 X 10-219th power. The number "one point oh oh nine" with 219 zeros after the decimal! Holy Evolution Theory, Batman! More than all the stars in the universe! Oooopps. Ignore science at your peril, king!

Oh, and, BTW, doeable: that's exactly how so many different species arose in the allotted millions and millions of years, their sperm cranking out hundreds of thousands of error-possible reproductions each day, and the resulting species branching away exponentially! It's positively Wild, huh, when logic explains things so nicely?

Last edited by rifleman; 04-14-2010 at 10:18 AM.. Reason: clarifications & typogenations, exponentially.
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