Jehovah's Witnesses-What do they really believe? (gospel, quotes, faith, Catholic)

[Pathwalker]

Originally Posted by alicenavada

No, we don't feel that is of any importance actually. We got our modern day start in the 1800's when a group of bible students decided to take it upon themselves to break free from the hold of their respective churches that they felt were dishonoring God w/ their doctrine. Hebrews chapter 11 describes a 'great cloud of witnesses' starting w/ Abel and we join ourselves w/ these ones in their worship. So our beliefs and practices are not 'new' but are actually what we believe to be a restoration of first-century Christianity.

So who were the 'witnesses' during the time between the writing of the book of Revelation and the 1800's? Only Jehovah knows. But I've no doubt that there were many. The fact that there is a modern day organization devoted to pronouncing God's Kingdom, however, was inevitable in the accomplishing of His purposes.

So you don't know where the true church was during the centuries before Russell "restored" it? What do you make of Jesus' words that not even the gates of hell would prevail against His church? If the church was lost for so many centuries, wouldn't that mean Jesus abandoned it, as He promised He would never do? That the gates of hell prevailed against His church?

What evidence do you have that the church was lost, or that it somehow was corrupted after the first century?

[alicenevada]

Russel did not 'restore' it, personally. He was a motivating speaker but he simply had the financial means to assist his fellow bible students in establishing the modern day organization. We do not put any special emphasis on his person and neither did he wish for any since he wished that all glory go to God.

Actually, the fact that there are so many of Jehovah's people alive on earth today, shows that nothing HAS prevailed against them. I didnt say the true faith was 'lost' for those centuries, just that it was not in the forefront . Just because there was no 'Jehovah's Witnesses' named organization during the dark ages, for example, doesnt mean there were none. There were actually many during this time that went against the common beliefs of the churches in those days and refused to compromise their faith, even at the cost of their lives. Regardless, in my opinion it is the actions, adherence to God's word, and unity of a particular faith that draws me, as a person. I feel that far outweighs any concerns about its age.

Which scripture are you referring to, by the way, the one that says 'not even the gates of hell will prevail against his church?' I am not familiar with that for some reason.

[Pathwalker]

I started typing my response when your original post was up. You've since edited it twice, so I've copied your post from 6:06 and pasted it below. Why do you keep editing it? You did it once at 6:06, and now again at 6:19.

Originally Posted by alicenavada

Russel did not 'restore' it, personally. He was a motivating speaker but he simply had the financial means to assist his fellow bible students in establishing the modern day organization. We do not put any special emphasis on his person and neither did he wish for any since he wished that all glory go to God.

Actually, the fact that there are so many of Jehovah's people alive on earth today, shows that nothing HAS prevailed against them. I didnt say the true faith was 'lost' for those centuries, just that it was not in the forefront . Just because there was no 'Jehovah's Witnesses' named organization during the dark ages, for example, doesnt mean there were none. There were actually many during this time that went against the common beliefs of the churches in those days and refused to compromise their faith, even at the cost of their lives. Regardless, in my opinion it is the actions, adherence to God's word, and unity of a particular faith that draws me, as a person. I feel that far outweighs any concerns about its age.

Which scripture are you referring to, by the way, the one that says 'not even the gates of hell will prevail against his church?' I am not familiar with that for some reason.

Matthew 16:18.

1. If the organization had to be established in the 1800s, how do you know that those believers had true and correct doctrine throughout the centuries?

2. Why the need for the establishment of a modern church organization if true believers were present on earth all along?

3. Who did the true believers turn to for correct doctrine over the centuries in absence of that organization?

4. How was the doctrine determined?

5. I'll repeat - what evidence do you have that the true church was somehow corrupted after the first century?

6. And what churches are you referencing when you say "There were actually many during this time that went against the common beliefs of the churches in those days and refused to compromise their faith"?

[Teach07]

JW's deny the deity of Christ, then you deny yourself. You deny the physical resurrection. The JW's entire doctrine is centered on strict, stringent 'rightness' that you proclaim persisted since the earliest time. I dont recall having to join a cult to know goodness from within, practicing the fruits of the spirit. I dont need an organization to tell me holidays are pagan - I can see that for my own. I fellowship with other true spiritualists and I witness to all - this is even considered witnessing and sharing views. I dont need to be brainwashed to understand my salvation. This is The (real) Secret...Jesus even spoke to the lowest prostitute to the highest priest, yet you tell others they will die if they do not follow Jehovah in his way, your way. Every piece of literature I've read from Witness does place them as stating to be the sole truth and authority and the one true religion.
If you do not realize you are more than just your body, but a creature of mind, body and spirit. This is what Christ was showing you. You deny the physicial resurrection.
If you never have an open mind and break the bias...you will never come into your own understanding as long as you have man telling you what to say, do, think or feel. It's not about arrogance or power over, its about power with. It's about your highest spiritual potential. It is pointless going back and forth over words like seeds scattered on the ground so that the child cant walk straight. I know the path, and it is clear. God is all powerful and I didnt have to change his name, create hierarchies, and serve an organization to find out. My mother is a pioneer in the JW organization. She religiously puts in hours of preaching, marking her 'time' down and constantly tells me 'faith without works is dead'. Says who? Yes it is in the Bible, but remove the Bible (not to discredit it) for a moment and get in tune with God and understand his true unconditional love. Look at what he has given you and then ask again what works does he really want for us? Take man out of the picture and you will find a love like you have never known and a feeling so peaceful where you have just woke up and everyone else is still arguing and sleeping. Many are too scared to go against what they've known all their life, and what appears to be truth. Dig deeper, seek knowledge, and you will see.

For those that want history on Witnesses google it and you will get the history and all you need to know. JW's place are self named the first witnesses and christians ever. My mom has even went as far to say the disciples are JW's.



The history of any organization (should I chose to be enslaved) is just as important for the future. Would you hire contractors to work on a large project within your home without past references and knowledge of their previous work? How can you say the past isnt important? Theology doesnt change, religion does so no you should not change your beliefs every few years because your New World Translation didnt change, so why did you? You use scripture to base everything but your scriptural translations are off, henceforth using and creating your own Bible.
Why are there no woman elders, or circuit overseers? Why practice shunning when God would never shun you- his very own creation made in his image. It is very egotistical to proclaim the supreme righteousness over all other religions, designating yourself as 'truth' and claiming to be the only ones to do things. Sounds like broken spirits trying to convince the world of their greatness. If only they knew they dont have to convince the world, they just need to realize their own greatness.

Mind control (the first emotional hook- usually one who is searching for God and has no sense of self/within), thought control (doctrine training) information control (pumping out biased literature and teaching strict adherance to it; teaching that anything against them is false/apostate as if to feign as if they are under attack).

[Pathwalker]

I'm taking a recess right now. Have some things to do. Will be back in later.

[alicenevada]

Originally Posted by WCRob

Matthew 16:18.

1. If the organization had to be established in the 1800s, how do you know that those believers had true and correct doctrine throughout the centuries?

2. Why the need for the establishment of a modern church organization if true believers were present on earth all along?

3. Who did the true believers turn to for correct doctrine over the centuries in absence of that organization?

4. How was the doctrine determined?

5. I'll repeat - what evidence do you have that the true church was somehow corrupted after the first century?

6. And what churches are you referencing when you say "There were actually many during this time that went against the common beliefs of the churches in those days and refused to compromise their faith"?

Thanks. My bible said Hades. I like that scripture, I just wasnt familiar w/the wording but I was pretty sure it was the one involving the keys of the kingdom.

1.) I'm not sure what you mean. I don't know that those believers had true and correct doctrine. Jehovah's Witnesses themselves have made adjustments over the years, based on our developed understanding of the scripture. My point was that there were surely those who had Jehovah's pleasure due to their zeal for truth.

2.) The work had to be organized in order for God's purpose to be accomplished. Without a organized society, it would be impossible for the good news to be preached in the same way that it was preached by the first century Christians. There were instructions from overseers passed down to those ones as well. And a worldwide brotherhood also makes us feel closer to each other and to God since we are in unity all over the earth.

3.) I do not know that. But I would assume they turned to God and the pages of the bible...the forbidden book that many of them were killed for even possessing.

4.) see number 3. The bible tells us all we need to know.

5.) Evidence that the true church was corrupted is clear to me in the fact that the practices and teachings of the first century congregation was largely abandoned by those that claimed to be Christians by the 3rd. By that time, new doctrines had developed and more emphasis was put on a mixing of church and politics as well as inclusion in war. Pagan holidays began to be mixed with 'Christian' practices and become tradition. None of the early Christians took part in these things. We don't either.

6.) There is no evidence that those were 'churches'. History shows them to be individuals who did not belong to any known religion of the time or who disagreed w/ their current faith. People like Thomas More refused to give in to the peer pressure of his fellow 'believers' because he knew what the bible said about adultery. And he paid the ultimate price. He is just one of many.

[alicenevada]

[quote=WCRob;853810]I started typing my response when your original post was up. You've since edited it twice, so I've copied your post from 6:06 and pasted it below. Why do you keep editing it? You did it once at 6:06, and now again at 6:19.




LOL...you caught me! Type-o's are my pet peeve...

[alicenevada]

Teach, you obviously do not feel we have the truth and since you don't feel the bible is something to depend upon, there is nothing for me to say.

I hate it when people say 'google it' because I myself have gotten TONS of misinformation that way. If you want to know the history of Jehovah's Witnesses, just go get a book...and MAKE SURE the book is written by an unbiased and educated source if you don't want to read the actual books written for this purpose by Jehovah's Witnesses. But I still dont judge the trustworthiness of a faith by how long it's been around or by it's modern day history. After all, Christianity was once a new religion and they had a hard time convincing the Jews that this was the way, didnt they?

I'm sorry we don't agree, Teach. And I'm sure it pains your mother too. But the thing is, it doesnt matter really if we agree. There are lots of people out there that love it when we come by, that love to study the bible, and that willingly make alot of sacrifices to abide by God's laws. We are a happy people, a peaceful people, and a people that are content in the knowledge that we are doing our utmost to please God. I don't feel I've been 'indoctrinated' or 'brainwashed' in any way at all. I was encouraged as a child to educate myself as 'to whether these things were so', just as Paul encouraged, in the scriptures. There's a marvelous freedom in that kind of peace.

Anyway, I'm gone for the weekend. I'll check back on Monday.

[kawgpz550]

Ok, another question...just because of "rumor" I had heard when I was younger. Is it true that JW believes that Jesus and satan are brothers or a similar relationship? If not, what is your take on satan and how he came about?

I do find it odd that Fundamentalists do not have to defend nor explain themselves as much as Jehovas Witnesses.

[JerZ]

Originally Posted by kawgpz550

I do find it odd that Fundamentalists do not have to defend nor explain themselves as much as Jehovas Witnesses.

They don't? Then what's all this crying I see on here lately about how Christians are persecuted, how Christians are being forced off the board because Satan has taken over, etc., etc.?

Also, should it be so odd that what appears to be a newer interpretation is less universally accepted than an old one? I don't see the oddness in that. Even today Christians go on and on about how they expect to be "persecuted" since Jesus said they would. And this is 2000 years after the fact. How was it only 100 or 150 years after the fact? I would think this was kind of standard.