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Old 04-24-2010, 10:40 PM
 
Location: San Diego
497 posts, read 439,576 times
Reputation: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Even if it is a big gamble...then it's like the lottery...you can't win if you don't play.

The Believers at least have a chance.
Actually, you only think you have a chance. You don't have any evidence to base it on.

And Vic...please don't turn into a caricature of your "enemies". Starting troll threads about the stupidity of god-believers is just as stupid as one of them starting a thread about how we're all worthless heathens who don't know right from wrong.

So please stop making the rest of us look bad.
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Old 04-25-2010, 12:31 AM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 2,277,951 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
What I am saying is posts like your's which are intended as an attempt to challenge people of faith fall flat.

If this is the best you can do then at best you strenghten the faith of folk like me.

You need to come up with something stronger if you want to make me think my faith in God is.......wrong
The better question is, why don't you want to think about your faith? Why do you need someone else to "make you think".

Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
EVERYTHING is faith based. LIFE is faith based. You can have...or lose...FAITH in anything.

Unfortunately...my newest faith based experience...is my LOSING faith in your ability to see how insulting and lame your argument is...........
Faith = Stupidity......Learning religious doctrine = Brainlessness. That's not cool, man! I would never say learning scientific principles instead of religious doctrine, is foolish or somehow detrimental.

Expand you mind Brother....take it ALLLLLLLLLLL in. It makes for a richer, fuller life experience.
faith
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

My faith excludes 2, 4 and 5. Were most religious faith, does not.

Faith is usual used in either 2, 4 and 5. Thus the laymen will usual get confused. eg.
Moderator cut: Deleted due to insulting to some members.

Last edited by june 7th; 04-26-2010 at 08:15 AM..
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Old 04-25-2010, 12:53 AM
 
4,812 posts, read 4,780,349 times
Reputation: 2453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic235 View Post
Have you seen someone who can only recite some verses when challenged? Totally lost the ability to use his own brain.

Indeed, plenty of fundies are like that, I admit...but, BUT, equally mindless are those people who try to use reason to prove REASON!

Rationalism is ubsurd, and the mindless defenders of Rationalism always go back to Reason to explain and defend their positions, much the same way a fundy says, essentially, "the Bible is write because it's written in the bible!"



I am not an Empiricist and do not believe that empirical evidence is all that great, and no amount of empirical evidence will make me believe in empirical evidence.

I am not a fundy, and I will not believe in the Bible being literal, no matter how many Bible versus you quote me.

I am not a Rationalist, and no argument, no matter how Rational, will make me change my mind.

Circular arguments Moderator cut: deleted. Plain as that.

Last edited by june 7th; 04-26-2010 at 08:16 AM..
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Old 04-25-2010, 01:17 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,238 posts, read 25,079,671 times
Reputation: 10538
Vic, I can't cite you chapter and verse of anything I've personally read--but I can tell you a basic summary of anything I've ever read, the pertinent or relevant facts expressed.

However, in light of your post, is the ability to recite chapter and verse of something by Emily Post or Judith Martin a good quality? Or a bad one?
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Old 04-25-2010, 03:54 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,859 posts, read 12,570,518 times
Reputation: 6434
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I haven't met any but I suppose there may be those that cite past knowledge, etc. when challenged, but at least what they are citing has a body of evidence, gathered and tested by others...What do believers in creation have?....No evidence at all, so all they can do is quote the bible....
I'm not sure that Creationism is even inevitably part of this discussion. It seems like something you just threw in so you can be on more comfortable ground.

Although as you use the lower-case it's pretty easy to show lower-case creation. The cosmic background radiation et alia is evidence of the creation event or Big Bang. Most physics I think accepts creation. A creation that also led to a unique set of circumstances that allows for our existence. (The interplay of natural constants, etc)

On other matters not everyone believes knowledge can only be scientific knowledge and that all other forms of knowledge are either subordinate or basically meaningless. The Bible is a form of knowledge. Even from a secular perspective it teaches something about specific cultures at certain times. As does the Chinese Book of Songs or The Bhagavad Gita or the Sundiata or what have you. Considering its significance in Western history a person who is ignorant of the Bible is, in some sense, ignorant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic235 View Post
Moderator cut: Orphaned
This borders on something like "I think James Cameron is stupid, I would not watch movies he directs." Meaning you're not really saying anything here except that you have certain tastes.

So okay "do not do faith" then. Why tell us what you're not doing if you don't have much more to say about it? Do you also want to discuss books you've never read and political theories you have no interest in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic235 View Post
What if you believed in a wrong God? What will happen to you in afterlife?
If my ignorance of said God is sufficient/total I would hope he/she/it would be as tolerant to me as I believe my God is to the ignorant.

Or possibly you'll be one of those who will tell me "They're all wrong so when we both die and cease existing I'll laugh at you!"

Last edited by june 7th; 04-26-2010 at 08:17 AM..
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Old 04-25-2010, 04:28 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,859 posts, read 12,570,518 times
Reputation: 6434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
The better question is, why don't you want to think about your faith? Why do you need someone else to "make you think".


faith
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

My faith excludes 2, 4 and 5. Where most religious faith, does not.
I think at heart most of what you're saying involves 2 as 4 and 5 kind of flow from that, at least in terms of what you seem to be discussing.

Most people are going to believe things that do not rest on material evidence or logical proof. The kind of trust implied in number 1 often requires that. Most people may trust someone even though the material evidence on their trustworthiness is uncertain at best.

On the other hand some would argue religion doesn't even fit under 2 anyway. If even one miracle is validly supernatural than this is material evidence and logic was important in the scholastic philosophies of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
Moderator cut: Orphaned (video)
This video is only valid if you are talking about the type of faith in definition 2.
I turned it off pretty quick. He seemed to be confusing cases where "reason and evidence do not show it" with cases where "reason and evidence can show it false."

The "Three Little Pigs" can be shown as false with existing evidence. Pigs are not sentient/sapient and their hooves make them incapable of building houses even if they were sentient/sapient. A person can reject things that can be shown as false while accepting things that have not been proven, by logic or evidence, as true. The distinction between the two is not semantics or meaningless.

There is no evidence that a just society is possible and I do not think the concept is logically inevitable. However people who hope for, or work toward, the existence of a just society are not the same as believers in talking pigs or fairies at the bottoms of wells.

So at base this kind of atheism quite possibly is ultimately just a support for the worst kind of cynicism. And this might explain the frankly juvenile and sophomoric attitudes it uses to defend itself. (Not that all atheism is like this in some inevitable way. I really do think this is a "New Atheism" as it's quite different than the atheist writers I read as a boy who actually could talk about religion without lapsing into cartoon shows, rude noises, and nursery rhymes)

Last edited by june 7th; 04-26-2010 at 08:19 AM..
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Old 04-25-2010, 04:55 AM
 
Location: Western Cary, NC
4,349 posts, read 4,236,445 times
Reputation: 7217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic235 View Post
Have you seen someone who can only recite some verses when challenged? Totally lost the ability to use his own brain.
It is a fall back position when asked to prove a myth, and reflects the level of brainwashing the person has been exposed too. Babbling ancient verses points out how dangerous religion can be even to an intelligent person. It blocks the ability to think for themselves, and with my lack of patience for such non sense will close the conversation with the person like cutting off a light.
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Old 04-25-2010, 04:55 AM
 
Location: Nanaimo, Canada
972 posts, read 662,696 times
Reputation: 489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
gee, there are people who devote their lives and careers to reciting lines and verses and earn a mint of money doing so, they are celebrated actors and actresses, and stars of the stage and screen, and bask in fame and success that is well-earned. It takes an incredible amount of talent, dedication and commitment, and a lot of brain power to memorize, access, and master a large body of technical material.

So what exactly is your point? Perhaps if you had a more clear command of the language yourself, you would be able to communicate with us in a more articulate manner?
I think what the OP is getting at is that some people have a strange way of taking leave of their senses when referring to Biblical events.

For example, anyone with an ounce of common sense readily understands that there is no way that Jonah actually spent three days living in the belly of a whale. He'd be dead from asphyxiation.

Likewise, the concept of Noah and the Ark is equally impossible -- if we take into account that there are currently estimated to be around thirty million animal species on this planet (and even that is a conservative 1% of all species that ever existed), we're still talking about sixty million animals. Floating on a boat. For forty days and nights. You do the math in regards to actually feeding that many animals for two straight months (not to mention that the Ark itself is likely the size of a planet).

Yet, there are still those that blindly quote the Bible, and some that even go so far as to claim it to be one-hundred-percent true and infalliable -- even when the Bible streches logic to the point of absurdity.

In short:

Faith is wonderful.
Blind faith is dangerous.
Mindless faith is foolish.
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Old 04-25-2010, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,238 posts, read 25,079,671 times
Reputation: 10538
^ What if he took ONE pair--and everything else evolved from that?
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Old 04-25-2010, 09:55 AM
 
5,108 posts, read 7,293,474 times
Reputation: 3443
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredNotBob View Post
some people have a strange way of taking leave of their senses when referring to Biblical events.

there are still those that blindly quote the Bible, and some that even go so far as to claim it to be one-hundred-percent true and infalliable -- even when the Bible streches logic to the point of absurdity.

In short:

Faith is wonderful.
Blind faith is dangerous.
Mindless faith is foolish.
i have to agree with you...

some people have a strange way of taking leave of their senses when ignoring any evidence that challenges science

there are still those that blindly quote any research study, and some that even go so far as to claim any science theory to be one-hundred-percent true and infallible---even when the research ignores conflicting evidence to the point of absurdity

In short:

Faith in science is wonderful.
Blind faith in science is dangerous.
Mindless faith in science is foolish.

An example is the person who medical doctors have told "you have six months to live." For someone who has faith in the science of western medicine, the person goes home to die: that is both blind faith and mindless faith, which as the post above so rightly states is not only foolish but also dangerous.

On the other hand if the person is open-minded enough to try non-traditional medicine (for which there is no "scientific basis" or "scientific proof" that it works) and the person regains their health and their life, it is proof that there are many things that science can not understand or explain.

For me the bottom line is results. I don't care what can be validated by science. I do care what is proven in my world through my own personal experience to improve my quality of life, health, happiness, and peace of mind. I am open-minded enough, and intelligent enough, to learn from every area of life available to me, including both the physical and the non-physical worlds; both traditional and non-traditional medicine.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 04-25-2010 at 10:11 AM..
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