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Old 06-11-2007, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Between Here and There
3,684 posts, read 8,486,350 times
Reputation: 1603

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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightbirdgirl View Post
Of course you love her interpretation something that releases everyone of all culpability and takes Christ completely out of the equation, show me where that is anywhere in the Word to be interpreted!! That is not remotely biblical.

MBG
Irregardless of what I believe or you believe I have to ask a question. How does believing that all good people go to heaven release everyone of all culpability and take Christ completely out of the equation?

Do you not believe that Christ died for the sins of ALL?
Do you not believe that sinners will go to hell or wherever heaven isn't?
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 365,880 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightbirdgirl View Post
Of course you love her interpretation something that releases everyone of all culpability and takes Christ completely out of the equation, show me where that is anywhere in the Word to be interpreted!! That is not remotely biblical.


No tears means no tears, it does not mean we will not be ourselves, it means that there is no sadness... we cannot feel bad.
We will be too busy on our knees in Worship.


MBG
So basically, we will have no tears and will not feel bad because we made it. So we won't care about our friends and relatives who are to spend eternity in blinding pain, seperated forever from their Creator and everyone they have ever known and loved?

This is the load of bull most Christians believe in order to explain how they will experience total bliss in Heaven without those they care about now.

If my child were to end up in hell, and I in heaven, I would ask God to go to hell, because I could not have an ounce of happiness in me knowing my child is being tortured in Hell. But wait...perhaps God will wipe my mind clean of ever knowing my children? To me, that thought is even more unbearable, and it is definately not true freedom and bliss.

However, I believe that none of this is the case. And I think it should make most believers think. If I, as an earthly, fallible parent, cannot fathom abandoning my children for ANY reason, how can God-who IS love, according to the Bible-do so?

Let me guess-He begrudgingly does so, but it makes Him sad that He can't stop it. I guess then that God is not in control, as we are always taught? Or maybe, just maybe, He is, and we have misinterpreted His Word?

To me, it's black or white. Either God is all-powerful and in control, or He is not. If most of His creation is going to hell, and He doesn't want that to happen, but can't stop it, then logic says God is not all-powerful.

Thank God, He is!
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, VA
1,076 posts, read 2,636,762 times
Reputation: 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishmom View Post
Irregardless of what I believe or you believe I have to ask a question. How does believing that all good people go to heaven release everyone of all culpability and take Christ completely out of the equation?

Do you not believe that Christ died for the sins of ALL?
Do you not believe that sinners will go to hell or wherever heaven isn't?
Do you believe if you reject the Son you get to the Father?? Being good gets you nowhere without Yeshua, you must have Christ.
He died for all, but YOU MUST repent and believe... Where does the Word say you can get to the Father without going through the Son??
I believe what the Word tells me, and it says that we all fall short(are sinners), no one is saved without Christ.
MBG
MBG
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:32 PM
 
Location: San Gabriel Valley, CA
12,542 posts, read 12,828,725 times
Reputation: 8396
I must spread some reputation around before giving it again to jeffncandace.

Dang it.

CD really needs to change that rule! I keep running up against it.

Anyway, that was a really good post.
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:33 PM
 
Location: San Gabriel Valley, CA
12,542 posts, read 12,828,725 times
Reputation: 8396
Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightbirdgirl View Post
Do you believe if you reject the Son you get to the Father?? Being good gets you nowhere without Yeshua, you must have Christ.
He died for all, but YOU MUST repent and believe... Where does the Word say you can get to the Father without going through the Son??
I believe what the Word tells me, and it says that we all fall short(are sinners), no one is saved without Christ.
MBG
MBG
I have to ask again because now I'm really curious. Does it state anywhere in the OT, in the prophecies there and mentions or allusions to a coming messiah, that the messiah will be someone nobody can get to heaven through without? (Sorry, I realize that sentence is a grammatical nightmare.)
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, VA
1,076 posts, read 2,636,762 times
Reputation: 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
So basically, we will have no tears and will not feel bad because we made it. So we won't care about our friends and relatives who are to spend eternity in blinding pain, seperated forever from their Creator and everyone they have ever known and loved?

This is the load of bull most Christians believe in order to explain how they will experience total bliss in Heaven without those they care about now.

If my child were to end up in hell, and I in heaven, I would ask God to go to hell, because I could not have an ounce of happiness in me knowing my child is being tortured in Hell. But wait...perhaps God will wipe my mind clean of ever knowing my children? To me, that thought is even more unbearable, and it is definately not true freedom and bliss.

However, I believe that none of this is the case. And I think it should make most believers think. If I, as an earthly, fallible parent, cannot fathom abandoning my children for ANY reason, how can God-who IS love, according to the Bible-do so?

Let me guess-He begrudgingly does so, but it makes Him sad that He can't stop it. I guess then that God is not in control, as we are always taught? Or maybe, just maybe, He is, and we have misinterpreted His Word?

To me, it's black or white. Either God is all-powerful and in control, or He is not. If most of His creation is going to hell, and He doesn't want that to happen, but can't stop it, then logic says God is not all-powerful.

Thank God, He is!
I do not believe in a puppet master, but a loving God. And I know all who call on the name of His Son are saved. We all fall short... and no one is good enough for heaven without the blood of Christ.
I trust God completely, and I know His love is complete, I will never second guess my Creator.
All I have to do to receive ultimate joy is to love His Son.
That is all.
Like any parent, He does not want forced love but for us to willing love Him for all He has done for us.
Sorry, love is not logical to you.
But You have the free will to reject Him as I have to choose Him.
MBG
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 365,880 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
I must spread some reputation around before giving it again to jeffncandace.

Dang it.

CD really needs to change that rule! I keep running up against it.

Anyway, that was a really good post.
Thanks!
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 365,880 times
Reputation: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightbirdgirl View Post
I do not believe in a puppet master, but a loving God. And I know all who call on the name of His Son are saved. We all fall short... and no one is good enough for heaven without the blood of Christ.
I trust God completely, and I know His love is complete, I will never second guess my Creator.
All I have to do to receive ultimate joy is to love His Son.
That is all.
Like any parent, He does not want forced love but for us to willing love Him for all He has done for us.
Sorry, love is not logical to you.
But You have the free will to reject Him as I have to choose Him.
MBG
Again, the oldest arguement in the book, although I don't know what you mean by "love is not logical to you". Logic has nothing to do with my heart, which would break if my child were in hell, no matter where I was, Heaven or no.

As far as free will to reject/choose Him, it's not so black and white as that. If a person does not believe in God, they are hardly rejecting anything, are they? I mean, you have to believe something exists in order to reject it. Besides that, the Bible says that believing in God at all takes the "gift of faith", which comes from God alone. So if God doesn't give them that gift, they won't believe in Him. How then would it be justice to send that person to hell for all eternity for something that was in God's hands in the first place?

You say you believe in a loving God, not a puppet master. God is our Heavenly father. How would any parent be considered loving if you had the power to stop something horrible from happening to your child, but did not do so? And if the child messed up and ended up in a horrible situation for the rest of his or her life, would you then reject them? Forever? Or would you still love them because they were your child, and do all you could within your power to help them, until the very end?
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Between Here and There
3,684 posts, read 8,486,350 times
Reputation: 1603
Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightbirdgirl View Post
I do not believe in a puppet master, but a loving God. And I know all who call on the name of His Son are saved. We all fall short... and no one is good enough for heaven without the blood of Christ.I trust God completely, and I know His love is complete, I will never second guess my Creator.
All I have to do to receive ultimate joy is to love His Son.
That is all.
Like any parent, He does not want forced love but for us to willing love Him for all He has done for us.
Sorry, love is not logical to you.
But You have the free will to reject Him as I have to choose Him.
MBG
Don't you see that to say that God is loving, and that His love is complete is in direct contradiction to thinking that He would send ANYONE to eternal hell? I agree that we needed the blood of Christ to save us ALL, and thankfully He did sacrifice for us ALL.
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Alexandria, VA
1,076 posts, read 2,636,762 times
Reputation: 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
Again, the oldest arguement in the book, although I don't know what you mean by "love is not logical to you". Logic has nothing to do with my heart, which would break if my child were in hell, no matter where I was, Heaven or no.

As far as free will to reject/choose Him, it's not so black and white as that. If a person does not believe in God, they are hardly rejecting anything, are they? I mean, you have to believe something exists in order to reject it. Besides that, the Bible says that believing in God at all takes the "gift of faith", which comes from God alone. So if God doesn't give them that gift, they won't believe in Him. How then would it be justice to send that person to hell for all eternity for something that was in God's hands in the first place?
Non-belief is rejection, that is s circular argument.
We all make the choice, faith is a choice, not a gift, grace is a gift.
An it is clear what choice you have made. I will not argue in circles with anyone, I will pray for you only.
MBG
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