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JerZ, I believe in Heaven we have no memory of the ones in hell. There is a verse in Psalms that tallks about this, I'll have to look for it and let you know where it is, but the Bible says Heaven will be a happy joyful place and if we could know our loved ones and friends were in hell, it wouldn't be very happy.
I think you were addressing this to Midnightbird girl, but I think she may have given up the argument. The passage about wiping away tears is found in Revelation 21:4. Is that what you were asking about? "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
As far as the being on our knees all the time. I don't know of any scriptures that indicate this although I think there are some scriptures that make reference to the saints worshipping. (I just don't think it indicates 24/7)
As far as the inital post by JerZ, I would just say that the Lord created us. He understands human love and relationships. I just trust Him to be able to have enough wisdom to give us whatever peace or knowledge we need regarding our loved ones. I know to some that may seem like a non-answer but to many of these "unanswerable" questions, it just comes down to letting God handle some things and leaving it with Him. I don't adjust my theology simply because I can't know the answer to a question being posed, however.
Can't give ya reps, kaykay, but you deserve them here.
Kaykay - always the voice of reason! I think you are right trust is the key. No matter what you believe or don't believe if you trust God you will be fine in the end.
Thanks Irishmom and Alpha. Now if I could just convince everyone on this forum that I am "the voice of reason," we could all quit arguing and just accept my opinions as absolute fact! LOL!
Alpha, you have mentioned before that God doesn't operate as humans do and that we shouldn't bring Him down to a human level. But we don't. The Bible does that for us. Why? So that we can better understand? If it's inaccurate, then how are we understanding anything?
Why do we think of God as a father? Well, because the Bible calls Him the Father. (And so does Jesus, incidentally.)
You glazed over the fact that Jesus himself called God the Father and gave tons of parent-and-son parables and also analogies, saying (I think?) that this was just so that people could understand the concept of God better. (If that's wrong paraphrasing let me know.) But again...if it's meant to make people understand better then it must be at least somewhat similar to the truth. Right? So I'm kinda on that one.
Why do we think God might have feelings, like a parent has feelings? Well, probably because the Bible says God has feelings. God is described as having regret (He regretted having created humans and therefore decided to send the Flood). He is described as being jealous. Actually, that one is self-described. He is described as being angry, perhaps the most dramatic being his fury at Adam and Eve for doing what he as an all-knowing being already knew they'd do. (Count me in as confused again but that's a subject for another thread.) He is described as being pleased. These are all feelings. So...why do we think of God as having human-like feelings? Because the Bible says He has human-like feelings.
So...in short...why do we try to "make" God have human characteristics? The question is inaccurate, because as readers, *we* don't. The Bible does it for us.
Therefore...it's really not so weird that we might wonder how God, as a loving parent, could throw His children into hell.
I would add something else here. If God *doesn't* act like a parent does to a child, then really the Bible should be honest and come right out and say so. Rather than calling God a Father and giving all sorts of analogies about how a father wants to give children what they ask for and not something else, and rather than going on about love and other very human feelings, it should be more honest, if it is the case that God isn't as human as we "want" Him to be. Maybe something like "I and my Dictator are one" or something to that effect. I'm not being snotty. If we are truly not supposed to think about God in human terms, then the Bible should not paint God in human terms. That just makes no sense to me. Why not call it like it is?
I think that's pretty rude and not indicative of the typical CD mod, specifically the 'load of bull' comment. But that's not up to me to police.
You keep making that argument and trying to pull God down to conform to worldly standards. When Jesus used a similar style, it was to show that we could trust God to do for us what was just and that he would provide all our needs, not this universal salvation without anything required of a believer, that you've been spreading here. I also charge you that the family of God doesn't operate like the earthly picture of families. In fact, according to John, one isn't even considered a child of God unless they've accepted the Lord and acknowledged Him as Father:
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
So maybe your argument is valid but you must define who you're referring to as 'children', because it isn't the masses. That's more false gospel.
As I've said before, I wish you were right. But if you were it would make God a liar, Jesus insignificant, and the Word of God useless, because none of the aforementioned things could be counted as trust worthy, since all teach something different than you believe.
EDIT:
Hi JerZ, yes I did say that. In the scriptures, the word 'believe' is, from my understanding, a translation of a word that carries with it the connotation of 'commit'. So that believing per the original language carries with it a sense of dedication. That being said, I don't want that to be misinterpreted that I am implying works is involved...it's a condition of the heart. When you allow that work of the cross to 'break your heart' all the qualities and fruit of the Christian life will begin to manifest. (Hence the term 'born again'.)
I truthfully meant no offense regarding my load of bull comment, but that was my honest opinion. Perhaps I could have said so more diplomatically. It definately is not outside the rules.
So, to love your children unconditionally is "worldly standards", is it? I'm trying to stuff God into a box of my own making, am I? Numbers 16:22 and 27:16 both say that God is the God of the spirits of all flesh. Deuteronomy 10:14 says "Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is."
So does the Bible contradict itself? No, but perhaps we need to dig a little deeper with some of these verses
11 Chronicles 20:6 says, "And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might,so that none is able to withstand thee?" Doesn't this say that that the power of drawing man to Him lies with God?
Your last paragraph of "making God a liar" makes no sense to me. What in particular do you mean?
So, to love your children unconditionally is "worldly standards", is it? I'm trying to stuff God into a box of my own making, am I? Numbers 16:22 and 27:16 both say that God is the God of the spirits of all flesh. Deuteronomy 10:14 says "Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is."
So does the Bible contradict itself? No, but perhaps we need to dig a little deeper with some of these verses
11 Chronicles 20:6 says, "And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might,so that none is able to withstand thee?" Doesn't this say that that the power of drawing man to Him lies with God?
Honestly, Jeff, your use of scripture baffles me. I mean no disrespect but it truly does. God is the God of all spirits and none can withstand God...He's God! What has that got to do with being a child of God? I believe the Bible, Jeff. I'm not upset with you and I'm not trying to argue with you. I do, however, believe you are incorrect in your theology and what you are spreading is a false gospel. Also, it's worth mentioning that I am under the New Covenant, hence my use of John 1 and the definition of a 'child of God'. I missed your response on that passage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace
Your last paragraph of "making God a liar" makes no sense to me. What in particular do you mean?
If the Bible is God's Word, and the Bible teaches that we're all accountable to Him and the Bible teaches that Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Life and since without Jesus that would imply that you are absent of The Way, The Truth and The Life and that if you believe what you are teaching, the Bible is false and Jesus isn't The Way, The Truth, and The Life...He's just A Way, A Truth, and A Life. So if the Bible is false and the Bible is God's Word then God's Word is false making God a liar. Sorry, I should have been clearer the first time.
Honestly, Jeff, your use of scripture baffles me. I mean no disrespect but it truly does. God is the God of all spirits and none can withstand God...He's God! What has that got to do with being a child of God? I believe the Bible, Jeff. I'm not upset with you and I'm not trying to argue with you. I do, however, believe you are incorrect in your theology and what you are spreading is a false gospel. Also, it's worth mentioning that I am under the New Covenant, hence my use of John 1 and the definition of a 'child of God'. I missed your response on that passage.
If the Bible is God's Word, and the Bible teaches that we're all accountable to Him and the Bible teaches that Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Life and since without Jesus that would imply that you are absent of The Way, The Truth and The Life and that if you believe what you are teaching, the Bible is false and Jesus isn't The Way, The Truth, and The Life...He's just A Way, A Truth, and A Life. So if the Bible is false and the Bible is God's Word then God's Word is false making God a liar. Sorry, I should have been clearer the first time.
If none can withstand God, then why are so many "going to hell"? I'm not upset with you either, but I also believe the Bible. I believe what I believe BECAUSE of the Bible, not in spite of it. I've just done a bit more studying into the original Greek and Hebrew than most, thus my frustration. I'm not saying I know it all, but I am somewhat "learned" in this area of study.
I don't know know where you think I said that Jesus is A truth, A way, A life. I do not believe the Bible is false, or that God is a liar. I simply believe most Christians have got their theology all mixed up, that's all. God as we have traditionally been taught is a Cosmic Loser, IMHO. Constantly playing a game of catch-up with Satan for all of our souls, and losing by a landslide. Didn't mean for the world and everything to get so messed up, but somehow in His Divine Perfectness, He made a mistake.
I don't believe that. I believe that God is perfect, he knew way ahead of time how things would go, and made a way to reunite His creation back to Himself. In short, I believe what most Christians claim to believe, but don't really: I believe that God is in control, is all-powerful and all-knowing. I believe He has THE WHOLE WORLD in His hands.
Alpha, you have mentioned before that God doesn't operate as humans do and that we shouldn't bring Him down to a human level. But we don't. The Bible does that for us. Why? So that we can better understand? If it's inaccurate, then how are we understanding anything?
Why do we think of God as a father? Well, because the Bible calls Him the Father. (And so does Jesus, incidentally.)
You glazed over the fact that Jesus himself called God the Father and gave tons of parent-and-son parables and also analogies, saying (I think?) that this was just so that people could understand the concept of God better. (If that's wrong paraphrasing let me know.) But again...if it's meant to make people understand better then it must be at least somewhat similar to the truth. Right? So I'm kinda on that one.
Why do we think God might have feelings, like a parent has feelings? Well, probably because the Bible says God has feelings. God is described as having regret (He regretted having created humans and therefore decided to send the Flood). He is described as being jealous. Actually, that one is self-described. He is described as being angry, perhaps the most dramatic being his fury at Adam and Eve for doing what he as an all-knowing being already knew they'd do. (Count me in as confused again but that's a subject for another thread.) He is described as being pleased. These are all feelings. So...why do we think of God as having human-like feelings? Because the Bible says He has human-like feelings.
So...in short...why do we try to "make" God have human characteristics? The question is inaccurate, because as readers, *we* don't. The Bible does it for us.
Therefore...it's really not so weird that we might wonder how God, as a loving parent, could throw His children into hell.
FOUND IT~~!! (I was looking for this post on the other thread)
You are absolutely right, JerZ. And I hope I didn't come across as 'slam the door, God ain't like us!' I'm just saying there's a limit to the extent we can compare God to human parents. Also, and more importantly, regarding your last sentence, I think John is pretty clear that those who have received Him and believed in His name, are considered His children. To those that haven't, the avenue to be adopted(Romans speaks so much about this and it's awesome) is there, but it takes an effort on your part. God isn't dragging anyone into His family, but if you want to be a part of the family of God, you have that OPTION. However, until you say in your heart, I want to be adopted, this father-daughter relationship isn't 'in effect'. Does that make any sense? In other words, God isn't throwing His children in Hell. The people that have said 'I don't want you for my dad' get exactly what they want.
In other words, God isn't throwing His children in Hell. The people that have said 'I don't want you for my dad' get exactly what they want.
I doubt that an eternity in unspeakable agony is "exactly what they want".
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Kaykay-the "fount of all wisdom" LOL!
