Is it possible to have a constructive exchange with atheists on God? (bible, faith)

[old_cold]

It's beginning to seem to me that Ryrge suspects we don't believe in his god because we've been laboring under a misconception of what god really is and once he explains how wrong we've been we'll become converts.

[allenk893]

Originally Posted by old_cold

It's beginning to seem to me that Ryrge suspects we don't believe in his god because we've been laboring under a misconception of what god really is and once he explains how wrong we've been we'll become converts.

Fool. Don't you get it?! He doesn't care! Nobody does! We couldn't care less about "converting" some random people on an online forum! Really? Naw.

[Nikk]

Originally Posted by Ryrge

Is it possible to have a constructive exchange with atheists on God?

No, it is written: Moderator cut: Deleted as attacking The Atheist is openly against God, and therefore has previously come to the determination there is no God (saying in their heart).

The exchange would be an exchange in futility. Don't bother, don't waste your time. Speak to those who want to know about God, not those who have rejected him already. The have made up their mind, they have formed their own axioms and presuppositions. So, no benifit would come of it. Avoid the athiest.

Prov. 14:7 "Go from thepresence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge."

[fishbrains]

Originally Posted by Ryrge

That is very good, your ideas about the God as:

a self-aware entity with creative powers far beyond any human ability. This same entity would either be responsible for the creation of the universe, or potentially some aspect of the universe, such as life.

Without being annoying, do you have any curiosity that there might be also a concept of God that is superior to the one you have an idea of but of which there is no corresponding reality?

What about my idea of God as maker of everything that has a beginning?

Not of course at this point bringing in the reality of such a concept of God in the realm of existence outside of concepts.

Ryrge

Your concept of "God as maker of everything that has a beginning" would work well enough as an operating definition, and is not so different from mind. I said "creation of the universe", and universe is approximately equal to everything.

I threw in self-aware, and another poster noted 'sentience' as a requirement, because most religions, certainly the western ones, and many of the eastern ones, use the term god to represent a being.

You do have a few unproven biases in your statement though. They are:

1. You presume that god does not have a beginning.
2. You presume that everything else does.
3. You presume that things that have a beginning must be made.

I would argue with you on all three points.

1. To presume god does not have a beginning, yet is boundlessly creative (and, I must continue to add, self aware), is absurd. Why would a complex being such as this not have a beginning? Why the exemption?

2. We simply do not know how the universe got here. Maybe a quantum hiccup that just happened. It seems to be possible on the sub-atomic level, why not on a larger level? Maybe it has always been here, an endless cycle of big bang:big collapse. Perhaps our visible universe is simply a byproduct of another universe, such as a tree throwing off seeds. In any case, the origins of the universe may never be knowable, but there is a possibility in some way that there was no beginning.

3. Your presumption that everything with a beginning must be made. No, I disagree again. Why not the quantum event hiccup resulting in the big bang?

So, our concepts are close, but you are throwing in some presuppositions that I cannot accept as a part of your concept without proof that they are necessary or true.

[fishbrains]

Originally Posted by old_cold

It's beginning to seem to me that Ryrge suspects we don't believe in his god because we've been laboring under a misconception of what god really is and once he explains how wrong we've been we'll become converts.

I have suspected that for a long time. It seems to be a common concept with theists. Many honestly seem to believe that atheists have not thought about the concept of a deity; believe in a deity, but are in rebellion; or simply have a wrong idea, and when the real idea is shown, wow, christianity!!!!! (or the sect of your choice).

[Lamplight]

Originally Posted by Ryrge

That is a constructive suggestion.


What about in place of God Who gave the ten commandments, just the God Who on my reasoning is the maker of everything that has a beginning?

Please take note however I am not challenging the belief of Christians that God also gave the ten commandments.

And I am also a Christian, but an independent one, as also an independent theist.


The God maker of everything that has a beginning, that is the God of ancient philosophers who came to the knowledge of God, and they did not accept either the idea of gods and goddesses who are into improprieties in their romantic involvements.

Can you accept that concept of God, maker of everything that has a beginning?




Ryrge

I don't have a problem with any concept of God. I can accept your idea of God without issue, as long you're not expecting me to accept it as truth. That I cannot do because it is simply not believable to me. That does not mean I think there is no possibility for a supreme deity, a creator. After all, anything is possible. But it does mean that I think the possibility is very, very unlikely.

Originally Posted by Nikk

No, it is written: The fool has said in his heart their is no God. The Atheist is openly against God, and therefore has previously come to the determination there is no God (saying in their heart).

The exchange would be an exchange in futility. Don't bother, don't waste your time. Speak to those who want to know about God, not those who have rejected him already. The have made up their mind, they have formed their own axioms and presuppositions. So, no benifit would come of it. Avoid the athiest.

Prov. 14:7 "Go from thepresence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge."

I am not against the idea of God, necessarily. I have come to the conclusion that there is no God because I don't find the idea believable. And if there is a God, I would have to know about his/her true nature before I could decide to be "against" him/her. And to discover its nature, I'd want to hear it directly from the horse's mouth instead of assuming an ancient text is the real deal because some people told me it was.

[tilli]

Originally Posted by Ryrge

That is your attitude toward God, not any constructive communication.

No, it's my attitude towards theists who don't accept that atheists are not in rebellion against their god, but actually do not believe in it.

Leaving aside your hostile attitude against God, let me know whether you are informed about what is the concept of God as believed in by theists: Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

I don't have a hostile attitude towards mythological creatures. Yes I am familiar with the Abrahamic god. I find it interesting that you only include those theists but conveniently leave out the thousands of other gods that people believe in now or have believed in the past. Why is that? Why do you so casually discard all those other gods which have just as much evidence as yours?

Otherwise, your attitude is similar to people who don't like policemen and call them pigs, but when asked to make known what is their concept of a policeman, they insist that as far as they are concerned policemen are not different from pigs; and there, end of getting any concept from them on what concept they have of policemen.

So, what kind of any constructive exchange can anyone have, who has a concept of a policeman as a keeper of peace and order and the enforcement agent of laws for the safety of people and the security of their properties, with people who hate policemen and just keep insisting that for them policemen are pigs.

I grow weary of your constant mischaracterization of my statements.

And your concept of God is not any concept but an attitude of hostility toward God.

I am not hostile towards mythological creatures.

Perhaps this question could be more logical to you, why do you want to call God spaghetti, unicorn, tooth fairy, when theists like myself already tell you that for us God is the maker of everything that has a beginning.

Once again - I am not calling your god a unicorn. I brought up unicorns as an example of a mythological creature which I hoped we could both agree does not exist. I think your god and all the others are mythological, and I don't have a grudge against those gods any more than you have a grudge against unicorns.

You say because there is no evidence, but I am saying that you mean you cannot find any evidence for God which evidence you will accept.

Yes, "because I said so" is not evidence, it is assertion. Humans have asserted the existence of thousands of gods, but I have seen no evidence that any of them actually exist.

In logic you do know or you also deny that if you cannot find evidence for something, then it is not enough ground for you to conclude that the something does not exist, unless that something is intrinsically impossible.

Of course it is impossible to prove a negative. It is possible that dieties exist. It is possible that the Norse gods are real. It is possible that the Egyptian gods are real. It is even possible that your god is real. However, there is no evidence that any of them exist outside the minds of their followers.

So, now we get the idea that you call God spaghetti and tooth fairy and unicorn, why? Because for you God is not the maker of everything that has a beginning.

Once again, unicorns were brought up only as a way to explain to you that atheists do not have a grudge against your god. Just as you don't have a grudge against unicorns, you simply do not believe that they exist.

Okay, I will in turn ask you who or what then gives existence to everything that has a beginning.

I don't know. Maybe one day we will figure it out, but until then we are ignorant. I also don't feel the need to fill that gap in knowledge with mythology.

Is that what you are trying to say with your attitude of calling God spaghetti, unicorn, tooth fairy, werewolf, bearded old man, santa? Because you don't want to think about even the possibility and necessity of a maker of everything that has a beginning?

Nope, it's because you insisted that atheists have a grudge against your god. Your god is just as mythological to me as santa is to you, and that was the sole purpose in making that comparison.

[Gplex]

Originally Posted by Thomas R.

And philosophical materialists often prevent others from having a constructive conversation because they follow a dogmatic doctrine that "the Truth is only what can be proven by science and all else is delusion." They can be strongly partial to their group and intolerant of others. Sam Harris in particular is a bigot known for believing some ideas should be purged from society.

And that's not even getting into more politicized atheistic creeds like Marxism or Randian Objectivism.

Another over reaching claim. Again, your claim of knowledge from no knowledge is just what Sam Harris was talking about. Anyone can make claims.
Science is currently the best way to sort fact from fiction, if you have a better idea, I'd like to hear it.
Yea, wanting empirical evidence before excepting claims makes you are bigot . As for bringing up marxism and trying to link it to atheism (Atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist) It's just another pathetic attempt to link all atheist to a few evil people. Like I said. Bigoted.

Currently nothing immaterial can be demonstrated or even proven to exist. Thus all claim besides this, is just a GUESS.
So explain to me how to have a constructive conversation with someone who continuously makes GUESSES about the subject?

You can't have a constructive conversation on the nature of an "unknown", and because you can't figure out why, you decided to point and blame it on those who laugh at you for making obvious fantasy claims.

[Ryrge]

Originally Posted by old_cold

It's beginning to seem to me that Ryrge suspects we don't believe in his god because we've been laboring under a misconception of what god really is and once he explains how wrong we've been we'll become converts.

Well, that is not what I want to do to covert you, but just to get your information on what you know to be concepts of God from people who claim to know God's existence.

Don't you see it, or is it so subtle a question that you cannot see it because you are not accustomed to fine subtleties which are realities of razor edge finesse.

It is very sad for me that atheists usually cannot see into very thin things and ideas, that is why they have to resort to calling God spaghetti, unicorn, werewolf, tooth fairy, santa, bearded old man.

Can you think of a cause of everything that has a beginning?

Now, you will accuse me of not showing you respect.


What has respect got to do with asking you for what you have as information of the concept of God from theists?


I really find it most frustrating and I suspect that you atheists purposely tend to be dense and incoherent or you would indulge in frivolities.

All in order to not do serious substantial and logical and rational and intelligent thinking, intelligent thinking? Yes, thinking that is creative instead of being obstructionistic, putting blinders to the eye of your mind.


That is why whereas theists see order and intelligence in the universe, atheists want to see only chance and chaos, but then they also slip in order and intelligence in insisting that chance can bring about the intelligence by which intelligence atheists can try through the very abuse of their intelligence to combine and permutate and arrange ideas and words to convince people that they are so solidly grounded on reason in rejecting the whole concept of God as maker of everything that has a beginning.


If you think that I am showing disrespect to you atheists and also insulting you, then you do also or write also similarly about me in a similar fashion, but don resort to epithets.





Ryrge

[allenk893]

Originally Posted by Nikk

No, it is written: Moderator cut: Orphaned The Atheist is openly against God, and therefore has previously come to the determination there is no God (saying in their heart).

The exchange would be an exchange in futility. Don't bother, don't waste your time. Speak to those who want to know about God, not those who have rejected him already. The have made up their mind, they have formed their own axioms and presuppositions. So, no benifit would come of it. Avoid the athiest.

Prov. 14:7 "Go from thepresence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge."

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