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Old 05-14-2010, 02:03 AM
 
Location: England
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The fact is kingdomcome1 the book of Enoch is not recognised by the Catholic, Protestant or Jewish religions because they don't consider it to be "Inspired".
It is recognised only by the Ethiopian Orthodox church which is probably why your pastor has'nt talked about this book.
He, like the rest of the Christian chuch do not believe the book was inspired by the word of God.
Ask your pastor.
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by albion View Post
The fact is kingdomcome1 the book of Enoch is not recognised by the Catholic, Protestant or Jewish religions because they don't consider it to be "Inspired".
It is recognised only by the Ethiopian Orthodox church which is probably why your pastor has'nt talked about this book.
He, like the rest of the Christian chuch do not believe the book was inspired by the word of God.
Ask your pastor.
Catholics and the Protestatants separated from them are not two religions, and the Ethiopian Church is totally Christ worshiping and is not a different religion, either, but is orthodox in its worship of the One True God.

The Protestants are satellite children of Rome [and many are returning to Rome in these days, in case you haven't noticed], who banned Enoch four hundred years almost, after the early Church was founded, and the early Church called Enoch Scripture [as Jesus also did]. Now the Christ rejecting Jews of the firzt century most notably did ban Enoch, having rejected Christ, they had no choice, for it is about the Person of the Son of Man in heaven, who was seen in secret with God, and who was God, and who was to come for our salvation.

The Ethiopian Jews who converted to Christ in the early days of the Gospel never banned Enoch, but kept it in their Bibles, which simply means "collection of writings".

The Jews who were the heirs of the royal priesthood in Israel [sons of Zadok] and who formed the separated Essene community, leaving the Dead Sea Scroll manuscript collection in the Qumran caves, kept Enoch in their Bibles, and studied it as Scripture.

And I am not protestant nor am I Roman Catholic, nor am I a converted to Christ as Messiah Jew, and it is in my Bible, as it is in the Baptist Pastor's [Ronald Brown] who has compiled an edited edition [using just the Ethiopic Ge'ez for his edition, instead of the mixed translations of the former translators], who listed over 300 Scriptures correlating in it with the English Bible -but I have found many, many, more in my own studies.
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Old 05-14-2010, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Went around the corner & now I'm lost!!!!
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Originally Posted by kingdomcome1 View Post
Ok, thanks for the info
Another book to read would be The Lost Book of Enoch by Joseph Lumpkin also can be found on Amazon.com. He gives cross references of the same wording used in both the OT and NT referring back to the writings of Enoch. He also cite references mentioned in the bible of other lost writings such as the prophet Iddo in 2 Chron 13:22, the book of wars of the Lord in Num 21:14, the annuals of Jehu in 1 Chron 24:27, the book of Jasher in Josh 10:13 and I Sam 1:18 just to name a few.

As YSM says, you will have to do the study on your own. From the begining of my studies of just the bible, I have had the Holy Spirit teach me and guide me to seek those questions that the Lord was having me to seek out. A pastor can't or won't answer them. You may find yourself wanting to ask about these books of those who claim to know the word but you may get attacked for doing so. So spare yourself the hurt/anger and ask the Lord for revelation.
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kingdomcome1 View Post
Ok....I guess I'll take it up with my Pastor and try to learn some of this on my own....thanks.....
Yes it doesnt say the 'earth is flat',it merely says the earth is 'fixed in place' and the sun and everything else in the universe revolves around it.......a fact the average six year old would quibble with!YSM will fight all night and into tomarrow that the ancient jews believed the world was round......yet doesn't dispute they believed it was fixed in place,doesnt rotate.........and she actually believes this herself!

I can understand people thousands of years ago believing such things,but until I started reading her posts I didn't realize some still did.
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Old 05-15-2010, 12:46 AM
 
Location: England
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I completely agree with you imbobbbb, on another thread she says that Noah was an electrician!
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Old 05-15-2010, 10:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by albion View Post
I completely agree with you imbobbbb, on another thread she says that Noah was an electrician!
You do most grieviously err. I said Noah was "an electrical engineer".
http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...-engineer.html
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Old 05-15-2010, 10:58 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,464,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imbobbbb View Post
Yes it doesnt say the 'earth is flat',it merely says the earth is 'fixed in place' and the sun and everything else in the universe revolves around it.......a fact the average six year old would quibble with!YSM will fight all night and into tomarrow that the ancient jews believed the world was round......yet doesn't dispute they believed it was fixed in place,doesnt rotate.........and she actually believes this herself!

I can understand people thousands of years ago believing such things,but until I started reading her posts I didn't realize some still did.
I believe the Word of God. Sorry you don't.
The earth is fixed in its place, from the beginning of creation, but it will be moved out of her place in the Tribulation:
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

The earth will jump about as a hunted roe [they jump and high and twist about], in the tribulation.
Isa 13:14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

The earth will be turned upside down, in the Tribulation:
Isa 24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
The turning upside down of the fixed earth will make the seasons backwards [the hemispheres will be opposite to what they are, and Enoch says about that, in chapter 80:
Quote:
2And in the days of the sinners the years shall be shortened,
And their seed shall be tardy on their lands and fields,
And all things on the earth shall alter,And shall not appear in their time:
And the rain shall be kept back
And the heaven shall withhold it.
3
And in those times the fruits of the earth shall be backward,
And shall not grow in their time,

And the fruits of the trees shall be withheld in their time.
4And the moon shall alter her order,
And not appear at her time.
5And in those days the sun shall be seen and he shall journey in the evening on the extremity of the great chariot in the west
And shall shine more brightly than accords with the order of light.
And the sun runs/revolves on its course/path/highway, in the circle of the heavens, around the earth:
Psa 19:6 His going forth [is] from the end of the heaven, and his circuit/תקופה tĕquwphah unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
תקופה tĕquwphah coming round, circuit of time or space, a turning, circuit a) at the circuit (as adverb)


The earth is still, fixed in place, and does not turn, tilt, or orbit. It has no course, path, highway, in the Word of God, but the heavens and the host of them orbit the earth, in the Word of God.
Once, Joshua commanded the sun and moon to stand still, and they did, for nearly a whole day.
Jos 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. [Is] not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.


Quote:
Jasher 88:63-65 And when they were smiting, the day was declining toward evening, and Joshua said in the sight of all the people, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon, and thou moon in the valley of Ajalon, until the nation shall have revenged itself upon its enemies.
And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Joshua, and the sun stood still in the midst of the heavens, and it stood still six and thirty moments, and the moon also stood still and hastened not to go down a whole day.
And there was no day like that, before it or after it, that the Lord hearkened to the voice of a man, for the Lord fought for Israel.
And once, the sun went backwards for ten degrees: 2Ki 20:11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.
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Old 05-15-2010, 11:15 AM
 
Location: England
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I don't know how you expect your posts to be treated seriously YSM when you keep on insisting that the Sun revolves around the Earth, you need serious help.
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Old 05-15-2010, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Oxford, England
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Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Enoch is the book for the last days, and as Jesus was born in the "last days" [as God computes weeks of thousand year days],
A bit of rhetoric (Ps 90:4; 1 Pe 3:8) that states that a thousand years are like a day to him does not mean that God "computes weeks of thousand year days." It's just rhetoric.

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Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
then Enoch is for these last days, and esp. for the time of the tribulation, for those who are left on earth, after the Believing saints are taken out of the midst of the world.

Enoch was in circulation when Jesus Christ came, and His womb brother, Jude, called Enoch "the prophet, the seventh from Adam", and quoted his prophecy directly.
It doesn't call Enoch "the prophet." It reads [SIZE=3]Προεφήτευσεν δὲ καὶ τούτοις ἕβδομος ἀπὸ Ἀδὰμ Ἑνὼχ[/SIZE], "And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied these things. . ." Jude also left out the statement that all the ungodly would be destroyed. In addition, 1 Enoch 1:9 is just paraphrasing Deut 33:2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
James, another womb brother of Jesus Christ also uses Enoch's writings for his epistle.
He "used Enoch's writings"? Can you show how it was used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Barnabas, a disciple of Christ and a fellow "called apostle to the Gentiles" together with Saul/Paul, directly calls Enoch Scripture, and quotes from his writings several times, in his epistle.
And Barnabas was considered scripture by many for centuries, as was the Shepherd of Hermas. The whole idea of canonicity was developing during this time period. In the first century CE and earlier there was no such idea, so it's not really surprising that Jude would appeal to a very popular piece of literature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
The Ethiopian Church always has had Enoch in their "canon/list" of "collected writings/Bible", from where copies were got in the late 18th century and translated to English in the early 19th century. Enoch has been translated to English for these nearly two hundred years [but in old English],
Actually the text was first rediscovered by scholars in the 17th century, and the first English translation was executed in 1831 (and not in "Old English").

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
and Enoch was also in the collection of writings/Bible of the Qumran Community of "sons of Zadok" [the heirs to the royal priesthood in Israel],
The members of the Qumran community not heirs of the royal priesthood. There are some indications that there were some members who were Zadokites, but there are also indications that there were none. Whichever route you decide the evidence supports, they were not the authors of a representative portion of the Qumran documentary texts, and they may not even have held much authority if they were there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
and many copies of 1 Enoch were found in fragments in the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts; but so far, the section on the Son of Man in heaven is missing from those fragments, and that may possibly be a deliberate hiding of what is found because of bias of those who handle the DSS.
You must be referring to Strugnell's claim, although I also take it you're not aware of what that claim is. He asserts that a prostitute in Israel showed him microfilm of an Aramaic copy of Enoch that she had hidden in her genitalia. He claimed he would elaborate in a memoir he was writing, but no such memoir was ever published. To date, Strugnell is the only person on the planet to have ever claimed to know of any such text. Ironically, it was actually Strugnell who prevented the free access to the scrolls in the early years after their discovery. I see Emanuel Tov (the man who took over as editor in chief after Strugnell was dismissed) several times a week. I can ask him more about this if you'd like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
The section on the Son of Man parables can be proven to be part of 1 Enoch by other references to what is in that in the rest of 1 Enoch, though.
Or that can show that the Son of Man section incorporated at a later date what was already in the rest of 1 Enoch. Scholarship is now pretty comfortable with the Son of Man section as a first century CE composition. At this point, a copy of the text scientifically datable to before the Common Era would have to come to light to undermine that consensus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
On this thread, I will show that Jesus called Enoch Scripture and "the wisdom of God", and that He preaches the Gospel of the Son of Man from what is written about Him in "1 Enoch, the prophet, the seventh from Adam".
I'm skeptical that you can show that.
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Old 05-15-2010, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Oxford, England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Jesus preaches from the Book of Enoch:

Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
1 Enoch 108
11"And now I will summon the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their faithfulness deserved.
12And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved My holy name, and I will seat each on the throne of his honour.
13And they shall be resplendent for times without number; for righteousness is the judgement of God; for to the faithful He will give faithfulness in the habitation of upright paths.

1 Enoch 25

And he said unto me: "Enoch, why dost thou ask me regarding the fragrance of the tree, and why dost thou wish to learn the truth?"
2Then I answered him saying: "I wish to know about everything, but especially about this tree."
3And he answered saying: "This high mountain which thou hast seen, whose summit is like the throne of God, is His throne, where the Holy Great One, the Lord of Glory, the Eternal King, will sit, when He shall come down to visit the earth with goodness. 4And as for this fragrant tree no mortal is permitted to touch it till the great judgement, when He shall take vengeance on all and bring everything to its consummation for ever. 5It shall then be given to the righteous and holy. Its fruit shall be for food to the elect: it shall be transplanted to the holy place, to the temple of the Lord, the Eternal King.
6"Then shall they rejoice with joy and be glad,
And into the holy place shall they enter;
And its fragrance shall be in their bones,
And they shall live a long life on earth,
Such as thy fathers lived:
And in their days shall no sorrow or plague
Or torment or calamity touch them."
7Then blessed I the God of Glory, the Eternal King, who hath prepared such things for the righteous, and hath created them and promised to give to them.

Jesus calls Enoch Scripture:
In the book of Enoch, Enoch was told to tell the fallen Watchers this:
Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, [Enoch's writings] neither the power of God [Moses writing]?
Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are
like/even as the angels which are in heaven.

Enoch teaches the resurrection and translation of the elect/righteous/redeemed, and that they will be companions of and as, the host of heaven, who do not marry nor give in marriage.
Showing loose semantic overlap doesn't prove a genetic relationship by any means whatsoever. More than anything it shows these different traditions drew from the same ideological matrix. The angelology you cited, in addition, shares much closer affinities with the Hodayot texts. That overlap is not comprehensive, however, and, again, shows only that they were drawing from the same matrix.
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