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Old 05-10-2010, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Ohio
10,427 posts, read 5,770,552 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
All ONE BILLION of them. Including plants, algae, insects and samples of diatoms, plankton, shrimp and...

3. Then, we arrive at the Ark Departure Gate. "Y'all line up now, and hop on board. Please go happily"... into a windowless stinking wooden barge absent auto-anti-roll stabilization fins that frankly, any good cruise liner now has. To keep you from endlessly upchucking over the side, you understand...
Just shows you how backward and unsophisticated the Hebrews and their god really are.

In the Deluge stories of other cultures, the deity is superior to Yahweh because the Hero was given the "seeds of life" for selected animals to preserve, and didn't have to bring every animal onboard the vessel.

Of course, in those stories, the Deluge was natural occuring cataclysmic event that lasted a few days, and it wasn't a punishment.

[Note to self: Move the spider plants and air ferns away from the bed lest they become wicked and evil and attack me while I'm sleeping]

 
Old 05-10-2010, 11:38 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 2,670,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
How could I have forgotten that, of course, there were no mountains, with the exception of Mt. Arrat of course. Geez, I better go back and get my money back on all of those geology courses. Stupid scientist
You probably should, if they did not teach you about marine fossils and sedimentary rock on the tops of all the mountains [excluding post flood volcanoes, which have been formed since the flood].

Mount Hermon, which is also called Mount Zion, on the Northern borders of Israel, was the place of descent of the Watchers both before the flood of Noah's day and also "after that".
There were mountains before the flood, but you do not know how high the highest one was, before the earth/land was "cleaved/divided. Enoch tells us about the mountains of earth, pre-flood, and of the "breadth of the earth", which is that realm from which Adam got cast out of and down to earth, at the fall.

I have a biblical world view, of course, and do not accept an old earth view, but the pictures speak of the fact of the Himalayas having been lifted up from the sea floor. I believe that many of these uplifted mountains happened after Babel's rebellion.

Quote:
The Himalayas - Geology - Visual Evidences of Himalayan Formation
[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]
This picture shows layers of sedimentary rock near the top of Mt. Everest which were formed millions of year ago under the Tethys sea. Such sedimentary layers have been found at the top of many Himalayan peaks. The sedimentary rock layers offer evidence of the tectonic force that lifted the Himalayas more than 8,000 m (26,000 ft) up from the sea floor. [/SIZE]
[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]
Tiahuanaco was once sea level, and is now 13,000' above sea level.
Research that one.
 
Old 05-11-2010, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 6,702,779 times
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Default Fairy Tale Runs Aground.

I, and others with a grade 9 high school science background or better, am constantly wondrous about this bizarre assertion of instant flood-borne top-of-the-mountain fossils and shells. What's the big deal? Is this the simplistic way that the Christian apologist websites ask you to defend the silliness? You really ought to think it through for yourself.... but otherwise, let's review this one briefly & logically, shall we?

1. We know that tectonic plate movements occur. Even YSM must agree because she acknowledges the earlier single land-mass Pangea concept, and yet we now have a bunch of separate land masses. So, yes sir, they separated and are on the move as we speak.

2. Current GPS monitoring, with the accuracy to detect mere centimeters of movement over a few months, has confirmed not only that movement, but also direction, velocity and vertical growth. Everest? About 3 inches uprising a year.

4. We know land masses collide. Right near YSM's home, good old Mt. St. Helen's, Mt. Rainier, Mt. Baker, Mt. Hood, Mt. Adams, and several others, are available for close inspection as to the consequences of colliding tectonic plates. This causes intense friction and occasional fractures, with resulting eruptions and mountain building.

5. So. I wonder what the big mystery is, that land masses, once laid down as obviously flat sedimentary layers, with dead fish in them and shells and trilobytes, then later lifted up to whatever heights. Then erosion uncovered them and we find them now. Even at the 24,000 foot level of Everest.

6. Then along comes the stupid idea that these were all laid down right when the flood receded, up on the mountain tops. Absurd in it's most simple review. How did all those fossils become embedded under literally hundreds or thousands of feet of sandstone or other sedimentary rock? All in the months of the flood? Even when we have core samples that show hundreds of thousands of years of natural deposition layering ("varves", BTW), which anyone can confirm down at their local lake floor?

7. Why, if the global marine environment was so unaffected by this mythical flood (I'm regularly told that my conclusion that everything in the seas and fresh-water lakes died is patently absurd, and that the aquatic organisms just "adapted" to huge salinity changes....), did all these mollusks suddenly die and lay themselves down? But, did they first swim to the heights of the mountain tops before dying? I've never seen a clam or mussel swim: perhaps I've been away from the ocean too long?

True answer:
over the course of tens of thousands of years of natural deposition of dead mollusks and other marine occupants, they naturally dropped onto the floor of various ancient oceans, where natural sedimentation then covered them up. Demonstrable everywhere on this planet. Today.

Well then, later, as these numerous moving tectonic plates collided, they rose to whatever heights the mountaintop of your choice is at today. Some, such as the truly ancient Canadian Shield, have risen, and then moved inland, and then eroded down to their current lowland status absent tectonic pressures in that location. This did not all take place a mere 2500 years ago, over 18 months. How does that "jive" with how fast we know these plates and mountains to move and rise?

How, indeed, does "Ark geology" jive with anything rational?

Answer: it Doesn't. Can't. Didn't.
 
Old 05-11-2010, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 6,702,779 times
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Yup: and even worse is when they venture into using logic to disprove Evolution or geology or radiometric dating, or when they mis-use the methodology, such as a recent debators' attempt to confirm Carbon-14 dating on some faked ceramic items. (It only works on organic items; i.e.: things that once lived and absorbed the Carbon14 isotope! fired ceramic dinosaur icons never lived!)

They should be forwarned: if they willingly choose to enter into the debate using scientific data, research findings and the logic inherent in The Scientific Method, they run a very grave risk because their version, the biblical one, requires heavy doses of pure MAGIC and is thus inherently illogical.
 
Old 05-12-2010, 05:42 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 2,670,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Yup: and even worse is when they venture into using logic to disprove Evolution or geology or radiometric dating, or when they mis-use the methodology, such as a recent debators' attempt to confirm Carbon-14 dating on some faked ceramic items. (It only works on organic items; i.e.: things that once lived and absorbed the Carbon14 isotope! fired ceramic dinosaur icons never lived!)

They should be forwarned: if they willingly choose to enter into the debate using scientific data, research findings and the logic inherent in The Scientific Method, they run a very grave risk because their version, the biblical one, requires heavy doses of pure MAGIC and is thus inherently illogical.
You are not a scientist, Rifleman, in that you accept unproven, untested, untestable theories, made up without any foundation other than the imagination of men, which you accept simply because you don't care to seek truth for yourself. Research in the subjects you accept so gullibly as truth, by consensus, shows that the theories you think are truth have never been proved, and all data actually discovered in those areas only shows that what your "group" thinks is truth because it has been stated as such over and over again, without the data to prove it so, is not true, and cannot possibly be true.
You believe what you believe only from your own imagination, and that of your fellow fable makers.
 
Old 05-12-2010, 05:52 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 2,670,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
Rifleman, When one turns a blind eye (well, maybe blind both eyes) to what science has uncovered, in the field of geology, then they can buy into this "young earth" BS. There is always the mornic excuse "Well, God can due anything." Yes, I guess God can do anything except follow Gods own laws, and the laws of physics, which of course, God created in the first place. It continually amazes me the BS people buy into when the facts are staring them in the face and they choose to ignore it.
You cannot prove or disprove the Creation and young earth by any laws, so called, because you only have the finished product to handle and examine. You do not exist in nothingness, and cannot begin to test the creation of this universe which you are a part of, because you were not there when all things came into being, and you cannot reproduce it.
As to a young earth proved by geology, that is a flat out total lie.
As to the laws of physics, methinks you are a bit off in your understanding there, as to what one can prove by them, or not. I once read a paper by a physicist who was not a creationist and his paper had nothing to do with God and the creation, but who admitted that the "laws" of physics do not work outside our own world and it is folly to think one can apply them outside the fishbowl so to speak [my paraphrase]. In fact, the so called laws of physics have exceptions to the "rules" which you cannot understand and which no one knows why, so the laws are not "perfected", by men, at this time.

Silly little "grasshoppers" on earth, who were "born but yesterday" -even in relation to a six thousand year old earth- who think they can know what is outside their little patch. How vain is the imagination of mortal man, since the fall!
Isa 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Job 8:9 (For we [are but of] yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth [are] a shadow
 
Old 05-12-2010, 06:00 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 2,670,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
...

6. Then along comes the stupid idea that these were all laid down right when the flood receded, up on the mountain tops. Absurd in it's most simple review. How did all those fossils become embedded under literally hundreds or thousands of feet of sandstone or other sedimentary rock?
Didn't.
Sedimentary rock filled with Fossils cannot form but rapidly. No fossil forms over long periods of time. The organism just does not lie around without decomposing for ages, waiting for water to lay sediment over it.
 
Old 05-13-2010, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 6,702,779 times
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Wink Right from the Horse's Mouth. Or.. perhaps his other end....

Don’t know if all you folks also see the same banner “ad” amidst this humorous thread, but I was drawn by the title.

“How to Construct An Ark”.

It supposedly clarifies and details the issues associated with building a barge to carry a few luckless inhabitants for 18 months (Their 1:150 scale model shows no windows. How did the passengers upchuck then? Right into the nests the authors say they lovingly constructed? Niiiiccce!).

The completely uneducated and childlike non-engineer authors also claimed the bigger animals held “steerage” positions to maintain proper shipboard ballast and balance during that storm, when the rudderless, un-powered ship was “dealing” with massive storms. (the T-Rexs would NOT be happy down there. Best lock THAT hatch!).

So here it is:

_______________________________________________

The Biblical Ark of Noah, the Bible Noah Ark of the flood, Noah's Ark.

I opened and started reading it. What a farcical accounting. They proudly show a picture of a Davis Raft of the kind which my father built up in the Queen Charlotte Islands off of British Columbia. This is no more supportive of The Ark than the popsicle stick boats I used to build when I was a gullible child of 6 or 7 years old.

For the uninitiated, a Davis Raft is a near-solid mass of a particular type of wood, usually spruce because of it’s density. It’s solid, folks, with no internal openings. As well, it’s sure not waterproof!

Then, they show a thatched roof. Aha. OK then! That’s how Noah kept out 11 inches of rain per hour. (Ever been in a 3 inches per day rainstorm? It’s intense. Even our threader here, YSM, lives in the Pacific NW, out near the coast, so knows full well what that feels like. But 11 inches per hour? Yikes! You’d have trouble standing up!

Well, I thought I’d capture just a few of this article’s highlights, but please… do read it for yourself. Get a coffee, not too hot, because you’ll likely spill it in your lap when you’re laughing so hard…..


“Yes, our view of the ark is rather fuzzy and many artists have provided various concepts of how the ark could have been constructed. But, from what little we know, how could an early man having very little technology have constructed such a large floating structure?

We need something that will float in very extreme circumstances so why not start out with a basic concept of a large log raft or barge. "Build a barge of cypress wood" from "A New Translation of the Bible" by James Moffatt.

(Pic of Davis Raft. Note that Davis rafts use chains, which the authors of this farce cover here with ropes. Why didn’t my dad think of that? And his rafts only had to last for a week or two at most, and all of it in protected waters. Chains: so unnecessary….)

Since we don't want Noah to have to make large chains for tying them together as shown in the above photo we will have to assume that he and his family have mastered the technology of rope making from vines or made from dried prairie grass.

Or this gem: he used sharpened stones.. Oh yeah.

Obviously having an axe to prepare the logs would be great, but as one thinks of it, not really necessary, sharpened hand stones could be used in log preparation. A two layer log raft base would take about 450 two foot diameter logs 75 feet long.

And then this one (put down your coffee first though; this one’s a good’n!)

And if he, Noah, didn't want to cut his own logs he could steal them from beavers (see note 1) for although they usually selects trees 2 to 8 inches in diameter, they can fell trees with diameters as large as 30 inches. He could even study the beaver to learn techniques since colonies of beavers often dig canals from the pond to a grove of trees. Such canals are up to 3 ft wide and deep and often a few hundred yards long. The timber is then readily floated down the canal. If he disturbed a beaver's dam they would cut new logs to repair it and continue this cycle until he gets enough logs. (Where there is a will there is a way.)

Now, for the upper part of the ark, consider a pole and beam structure of cypress poles with thatch covering the sides and the top. Thatch roofs have been known to withstand winds of up to 100 miles an hour and to last 40-60 years.

The pitch covering on the outside and inside of the walls would serve as a protective coating and maybe even to keep the passengers from eating the walls.

Then, the authors happily conclude…

Now that we have solved all the construction details. How about provisions for the passengers.

"All the construction problems solved" huh? Well, you REALLY oughta read this one for yourself. See what passes, in YSMs’ world, for an alternate to the stultified, dishonest and gullible beliefs of my fellow scientists, as well as thoughtful folk.

Far better that we believe in instant deposition of 250,000+ years of sedimentation up on Mt. Everest, of swimming clams (and YSM even lives close to the Pacific Ocean, and yet thinks clams and mussles swim around!) and magnetic water. Yup!

Continuing along, the authors of this stupid tract note that numbers of animals didn’t have to be that many. No? With big “No Evolving” signs posted all over the place? I suppose next we'll be told by YSM that the actual number of counted species on this planet is not 30+M, but rather only 3500. (there's more than three times that number of species of ants alone, for heavens sake!)


“The list of "clean" and "not clean" animals is not a very long list and includes only those animals that man might consider eating that lived in the localized area. But, many have long said that it is Noah's job "to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth" (King James Version). However, most often when the Scriptures uses the Hebrew word for all or every it is a localized all, not a global all! (see All is How Big?)

So here, they have just waved off their own requirement, and then segway (sp?) into...


Obviously, the logical way is to put all the larger heavier animals on the bottom floor and the smaller animals and birds in the two upper stories of nests. Many of the passengers would naturally construct their own nests if materials were readily available. The humans would seem to have to stay most of the time on the lower floor to take care of the feeding and clean up chores.

Yep. Brontosaur poop is a real hassle. Ever seen what one elephant leaves behind? But how about the liquid excretia dripping down on you, in the dark, from the lesser animals above you? Yuk!

Not often discussed is that the ark is also a food warehouse! So it must also include nests for food storage, enough food for a little over a year and probably enough for a short time after the flood until vegetation for food can grow back in the area. Per verse 8:11 we know that olive leaves were growing before they left the ark. The olive tree normally grows below 5000 feet altitude.

Just great for a plant dropped off at the 15,000 foot level. Oh, but what if you happen to not eat olive leaves? ("Here! Eat these olive leaves, Mr. Tiger. You too, Mr. polar bear! No! Stop! Back! don't look at me that way!") . All that food from just one tree? And I'm gullible?

So then, they happily conclude with this summary:


Conclusion: We have discussed a possible low-technology version of the ark for those who have expressed the opinion that an early man was not capable of building such a structure. Remember, the Hebrew text never says that it was a ship, instead says it was a box, a large box, but never the less a box, and as such would not require a high level of technology for its construction. As mentioned with what can be learned from the beaver, most of the techniques could have been learned from observing the animals and the birds in their nest construction.

Stealing logs from beavers, weaving it together with hand-woven ropes. Cutting the wooden beams with sharp stones? Thatching a roof and sealing it with pitch to keep the animals from gobbling it up? Keeping the big guys down in steerage, and tossing in some hay for them to build their little 18 month love nests?

No wonder the remnants can’t actually be found! It disintegrated about 2 hours after it first floated, and the passengers were all lost at sea.



Well, please excuse my gullible ramblings, my unthinking critique. YSM's version is sooooo much more plausible.
 
Old 05-13-2010, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Colorado
10,010 posts, read 11,936,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Sedimentary rock filled with Fossils cannot form but rapidly. No fossil forms over long periods of time. The organism just does not lie around without decomposing for ages, waiting for water to lay sediment over it.
Prestosuchus chiniquensis: Fearsome predator that roamed Earth before the dinosaurs discovered | Mail Online
 
Old 05-13-2010, 01:36 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 2,670,767 times
Reputation: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post

“How to Construct An Ark”.
Quote:
Book of Jasher 5
In his five hundred and ninety-fifth year Noah commenced to make the ark, and he made the ark in five years, as the Lord had commanded.
Noah built the Ark in five years.
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