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You say it doesn't matter, but I think it's terribly important whether one believes that Jesus is divine or not! And besides, I asked the question of you because I'm trying to understand your point of view.
If Jesus is, indeed God (and I believe He is), and a person denies/rejects Jesus, have they not also in effect rejected God (no matter that they *say* they "believe in God") ?
Can you truly believe in the one and not in the other?
You misunderstand my point. What I am saying is that is doesn't matter who believes in Jesus as divine or not if the question posed earlier relates to "Him" as God the father. That would open the door to people who believe in God the Father....which is not the same as believing they are one. It would mean that Jesus was sent down to teach us to love God the Father, that he was His messenger and anyone who believes in Him (the Father) would be saved irregardless of if that means they accept Jesus as divine or not. My point of view is always to question from what may be anyone's point of view. To think outside the box and see things from the perspectives of others. So that is why it doesn't matter what I believe when looking at a verse for interpretation. To have a clean interpretation you must take your belief away and look at it objectively, if you don't the interpretation will always be biased toward your forgone conclusion. That wouldn't be helpful IMHO to strengthen faith, it would only serve to reinforce what you already believe...which if that's all you want to do you may as well skip searching for your own beliefs and just swallow and accept someone else's spoon fed version. If the bible is indeed the Word of God it should be sufficient to turn a non-believer into a believer, it one needs to believe before they read it then it doesn't have much merit as a book of inspiration on it's own. Again this is how I look at things, not trying to tell you what to do.
Can you truly believe in the one and not in the other?
I forgot to address this part of your post, sorry.
I would imagine yes you can believe in God the Father from the Old Testament (whom is presumably the same God we as Christians worship as the Father of Jesus) and be quite comfortable not believing in the divinity of Jesus. Jews and Muslims have been doing this for years.
You misunderstand my point. What I am saying is that is doesn't matter who believes in Jesus as divine or not if the question posed earlier relates to "Him" as God the father.
regarding this: if the question posed earlier relates to "Him" as God the father.
regarding this: if the question posed earlier relates to "Him" as God the father.
But we haven't established that it does, have we.
Actually I'm pretty sure in context that quote does refer to Jesus because of John 3:18 but I am not definite...but like I said you can pull anything you want out of the hat if you desire to.
I don't have the time to look it up now, but I remember learning that in the verses where Abraham is about to sacrifice Isaac, God stops him and says that He (God) will provide HIMSELF the sacrifice. That is, God would provide Himself (as) the sacrifice...which, in due course, He most certainly did when He came to us as Jesus. Our pastor explained the intricacies of translating to English, and that's how I remember it. Maybe someone else can shed more light on this.
Um...no he didn't.
In fact God himself didn't even speak; it was an angel speaking for God. But that's beside the point.
Where do you get that God said he was going to provide "himself" the sacrifice? A ram showed up.
(p.s. I'll bet Isaac was just disguising his voice. "Abraham...Aaaaaaaabrahaaaaaaaammm...don't do it..." I'm just kidding...)
All right, wait, I think I see what you're talking about. It's Abraham who tells Isaac that the lord will provide. But he definitely doesn't say the lord will provide himself as a sacrifice, he says the lord himself will provide. It's kind of a stretch to turn those words around to try to make it fit a Jesus prediction. Anyway. Here...copied and pasted:
He said, "The fire and the wood are here, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?" 8Abraham said, "God himself will provide the lamb for a burnt offering, my son."
Well, I was refering to someone who is a theist. Theists have no free-will if their god is omniscient. So, if you want to talk generally, yes, free-will does exist but only if you are atheist. Free-will can't exist in the Christian's world. So no! I'm not a puppet.......but you are!!
Plad, I still make my own decisions every moment of everyday...God does not control me, or anyone, Christian or Jew or atheist.
Think of it this way. If as a Child I love my parent, and obey them, am I their puppet? Do I have less freewill than the disobedient child?
If I am a disobedient child do I have more free will, or am I just exercising it in a different way?
MBG
Well first, I'm surprised anything offends you. Why on earth would you attempt to be "Biblical" and yet you have a signature of "Jeff the Heathen"?
Second, it's insulting to YOU because you see it so. Why? Because we are exposing your false doctrine. Again, to shout insulting on an open forum is the low blow of attempting to build an offense of the illusion of being "personally attacked." Which in turn, you would hope to silence the opposition. Face it it's unBiblical and you're simply wrong on this, just admit it and move on.
Mark, do you have a personal problem with me? I can't imagine why, but I don't care how you slice it, it's very obvious from the tone of your posts when dealing with me that you're harsher than you normally are when dealing with others.
The reason your post was insulting was because of the way you stated that what I'm saying is flat wrong, is unbiblical, and that I know it and won't admit it. You are assuming quite a bit for someone who knows nothing about me. You can say that IN YOUR OPINION it's all of those things, but to state the way you did that I'm just flat out wrong is wrong in and of itself. The Bible has been interpreted and misinterpreted by millions over thousands of years. The way you post it's as if you think YOU have it all figured out and can therefore hand out judgements on who does and doesn't have it right.
How would you like it if I just said "Face it, Marks, your belief in a sadistic god who tortures most of his creation in a fabled hell-hole for all eternity is a false doctrine that is creating more athiests than Christians and God will hold you responsible for your ignorant hate-speak. You are simply wrong on the whole thing and you need to face it, move on and get over it." Would you consider such language to be insulting? Inflammitory? Degrading? Would it maybe take the edge off to add IN MY OPINION?
Mark, I have TONS of people on this forum who disagree with my beliefs. They somehow manage not to offend me (because that's so easy to do ), because they know to keep the tone of what they write respectful and to add that what they are saying is their OPINION, not fact. When you belittle someone else's beliefs based on what you state as FACT when it is in fact YOUR OPINION, you are being a bully. And when someone calls you out on that, you do the typical bully-thing and attack them for calling you out on it!
Read the rules.
And you're wrong, it's Jeff The Heretic, which is a tongue-in-cheek name derived from what people like yourself tend to call me, in all their judgemental-ness.
False doctrine? I know what I've studied, and prayed about. You have 1500 years of church lies to overcome, and like most Christians, you probably won't bother to study your Bible deeper, or do so prayerfully. Too comfortable in a country club religion.
Last edited by jeffncandace; 06-18-2007 at 09:39 AM..
Reason: bolding
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