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Except that isn't the way it happened. Evidence of the Church aside, even secular historians see this point.
The Gospels and other books of the New Testament were written under INTENSE persecution. A couple of Paul's letters were even written from prison.
If early Christians were going to fabricate accounts of Jesus to improve their social standing, they did a rather awful job of it. In fact, they did the exact opposite. They founded a faith that almost guaranteed them a spot as lion's lunch or burning as a torch in Nero's gardens. In some places, if their possessions were seized and their wife and children sold into slavery, they got off easy.
And most early sects of Christians weren't really interested in convincing anybody. There were certainly evangelists, but they were an extreme minority. Early Christianity flourished among slaves and the poor. The cynic might say that those early evangelists fabricated the words and teachings of their founder in order to dupe those poor slaves and thereby gain power. But again, didn't happen. Those evangelists were almost without fail boiled in oil, burned, crucified, dismembered, speared, or drowned.
If there was evidence supporting that, you might have a case. But all the evidence we have shows that the core beliefs surrounding Jesus were there from the earliest foundings of the Church.
Very true Mark. All but one of Jesus 11 original disciples died a martyr's death (Judas was not a true disciple of Christ) They did this to forward a lie? Doesn't/ wouldn't make since.
Very true Mark. All but one of Jesus 11 original disciples died a martyr's death (Judas was not a true disciple of Christ) They did this to forward a lie? Doesn't make since.
Why...because it's rare for zealots of other religions to die for their cause?
Literally millions upon millions of Jews have died throughout history to defend their faith. By this reasoning, shouldn't their religion be the true one?
As far as the viewpoint that Christianity has one common core going back to the very beginning, that's just not accurate. People were at one another's throat at least from the beginning of the second century onward--when written sources had begun to circulate--as far as which "scripture" was true and which was false, what Jesus "really" said and didn't. Even today there are no two sects of Christianity that can agree--and there are twenty thousand of them worldwide. They don't even all use the same Bible! Some have thrown out certain books as apparently not fitting in with the eventual idea of Christianity (Protestant v. Catholic Bible).
Even here there are so many different viewpoints of what was "said" and what it "really meant" that, obviously, even after two thousand solid years of scholarship into this particular religion, people still haven't figured out the bottom line on many issues. So in what way has this been a solid belief system with a solid history that can't be argued as possibly inaccurate?
ETA: I always forget something. As far as the martyr factor, sure, Christianity, in one form or another (gnostics don't count...etc...no other sect of Christianity seems to count except that espoused by a very very few people whose books were allowed into the Bible...but I'll leave that alone for now), despite murderous intentions...for about a century or so.
Then for the following eight hundred or so years it was the Christians doing the persecuting, with millions of individuals of every possible description dying horrible deaths for disagreeing with whatever the *current* view was...and that seemed to be always changing. (???) With reinterpretations...reorganizations of the book (Protestant/Christian)...etc., etc. For a faith that is so obviously cohesive, that can have basically only one actual and truthful history of its messiah, an awful lot of people seem to have been confused, haven't they? Like the mass genocides of Charlemagne and Olav Trygvasson...the Spanish Inquisition (backed by the "interpretation" of Biblical injunctions)...the U.S. witch trials (backed also by interpretations of OT injunctions)...the European witch trials that literally went on for centuries...etc. I am sorry...but I am just really not buying this idea that there was ONE story, it was totally accurate and people knew exactly how to follow it...and that it must have been the right one because people in the early years were willing to die for it. And even today people aren't certain about language interpretations, to say nothing of what might be literal and what might be figurative. Other people have died HUNDREDS of years for their own faiths...why then aren't those the "real" faiths?
As far as the viewpoint that Christianity has one common core going back to the very beginning, that's just not accurate. People were at one another's throat at least from the beginning of the second century onward--when written sources had begun to circulate--as far as which "scripture" was true and which was false, what Jesus "really" said and didn't. Even today there are no two sects of Christianity that can agree--and there are twenty thousand of them worldwide. They don't even all use the same Bible! Some have thrown out certain books as apparently not fitting in with the eventual idea of Christianity (Protestant v. Catholic Bible).
Even here there are so many different viewpoints of what was "said" and what it "really meant" that, obviously, even after two thousand solid years of scholarship into this particular religion, people still haven't figured out the bottom line on many issues. So in what way has this been a solid belief system with a solid history that can't be argued as possibly inaccurate?
ETA: I always forget something. As far as the martyr factor, sure, Christianity, in one form or another (gnostics don't count...etc...no other sect of Christianity seems to count except that espoused by a very very few people whose books were allowed into the Bible...but I'll leave that alone for now), despite murderous intentions...for about a century or so.
Then for the following eight hundred or so years it was the Christians doing the persecuting, with millions of individuals of every possible description dying horrible deaths for disagreeing with whatever the *current* view was...and that seemed to be always changing. (???) With reinterpretations...reorganizations of the book (Protestant/Christian)...etc., etc. For a faith that is so obviously cohesive, that can have basically only one actual and truthful history of its messiah, an awful lot of people seem to have been confused, haven't they? Like the mass genocides of Charlemagne and Olav Trygvasson...the Spanish Inquisition (backed by the "interpretation" of Biblical injunctions)...the U.S. witch trials (backed also by interpretations of OT injunctions)...the European witch trials that literally went on for centuries...etc. I am sorry...but I am just really not buying this idea that there was ONE story, it was totally accurate and people knew exactly how to follow it...and that it must have been the right one because people in the early years were willing to die for it. And even today people aren't certain about language interpretations, to say nothing of what might be literal and what might be figurative. Other people have died HUNDREDS of years for their own faiths...why then aren't those the "real" faiths?
What I was saying JerZ, is that the ones that walked with Christ, the ones that knew Him intamently, eye witnesses to events...... they died because they KNEW. I can't imagine 10 men continuing to be tortured, beaten, stoned, all for something they knew to be a lie.?. This isn't something that just happened and it was over... They continued to be tortured unto death for what they knew as TRUTH. And they kept preaching the TRUTH until they were killed for it.
What I was saying JerZ, is that the ones that walked with Christ, the ones that knew Him intamently, eye witnesses to events...... they died because they KNEW. I can't imagine 10 men continuing to be tortured, beaten, stoned, all for something they knew to be a lie.?. This isn't something that just happened and it was over... They continued to be tortured unto death for what they knew as TRUTH. And they kept preaching the TRUTH until they were killed for it.
People have always died for what they believed was the truth. Davis, Koresh, the 'Heavens Gate' mob et al.
When Hale-Bopp appeared in '97, an amateur astronomer reported an unidentified object "following" the comet in its tail. It turned out to be a star that was nowhere near the comet.
Thirty-nine members of Heaven's Gate believed that JC was waiting for them on the spaceship in Hale-Bopp's tail. They believed he had come to take them away to a distant planet. They believed that if they took Phenobarbital with a vodka chaser and tied a plastic bag over their heads, they could join JC on his secret spaceship disguised as a star, where each of them could use the five dollars in quarters they had in their earthly pockets for video games and sodas. They believed all of this: they believed it with such certainty that they loaded their pockets with quarters and took Phenobarbital with a vodka chaser and tied plastic bags over their heads.
In the past, Japanese people were more than willing to die for their Emperor because they really did believe that he was a god.
Do you really believe that because people die for what they believe, it makes it real?
People who believe in Krishna have been tortured and killed by other sects?
Does that make Krishna real? What about the attacks on the Gnostics by the Christians? Does that make Barbelo real? What about the attacks on the followers of Osiris by Aknaten? Does that make Osiris real? What about the attacks on Harry Potter by fundamentalist Christians? Does that make Harry Potter real?
So why do you think the attacks or the torture and death of those who believed in JC make him real?
1. If you believe Jesus was a prophet, sage, wise man, good guy, etc., and not the Son of God . . . . then why did he refer to himself as the Son of God, quote scripture from the Old Testament revealing he was the Messiah, etc., etc. If he wasn't what he claimed, then he was definitely a liar, deceitful. Not qualities of a wise man or prophet. More like a con artist . . . I respect those who hold the opinion that Jesus is not the Son of God, but if he isn't, I don't think he fits the bill of a prophet, wise man, sage, etc. Definitely seems like a more of a lunatic . . .
So why do you think the attacks or the torture and death of those who believed in JC make him real?
What makes people/Christians who believe Jesus is the Son of God, is because for 1000's and 100's of years before his birth . . . his coming, the details of his coming, his life, his death, the way he spoke (parables) were spoken about through the prophets, and through God Our Father, in the Old Testament.
Here are just Some of those Prophecies:
Ancestors:
- The "seed of a woman": Genesis 3:15.... Galatians 4:4.
- Descendent of Abraham: Genesis 12:3, 18:18.... Acts 3:25, Matthew 1:1.
3- Descendent of Isaac: Gen.17:19, Luc.3:34.
- Descendent of Jacob: Numbers 24:17...... Luke 3:34, Matt.1:2.
-- From the Tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:33.
- Hair of the Throne of David: Isaiah 9:7.... Luke 1:32-33.
Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2.... Matthew 2:1.... Luke 2:4-7.
- To be born of a Virgin: Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18.... Luke 1:26-35.
9- Time of his birth: Daniel 9:25.... Luke 2:1:
- Dan.9:25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens" and sixty two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
- Lk 2:1-2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was the governor of Syria.) (Lk 2:3-7)
- Mat.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
[
- He shall be called a Nazarene: Judges 13:5.... Matthew 2:23.
- Jud.13:5 for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God
- Mt.2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene
Passion:
- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9.... John 12:13-14. - Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)
- Jn.12:13-14 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written. (Mt.21:1-11; Jn.12:12, Mk.11:7-9.)
- Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9... Mark 14:10, Matthew 26:14-15.
-
- Accused by false witnesses: Psalms .27:12, 35:11.... Mt 26:60-61, Mk.14:57.
- Ps.27:12 Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes, for false witnesses rise up against me, breathing out violence. (Ps.35:11)
- Mt.26:60-61 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two men came forward and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.'"
- Spat and struck: Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67.
- Isa.50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
- Mk.14:65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him. (Mt.26:27, Mk.15:17; Jn 19:1-3; 18:22)
- Hated without reason: Psalms 69:4, 35:19, 109:3-5.... John.15:24-25.
- Ps 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. (Ps.35:19, 109:3-5)
- Jn.15:23-25 He who hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: "They hated me without reason."
- Soldiers divided his garments and gambled for his clothing: Psalm 22:18... Matt.27:35 (2 Prophecies)
- Ps 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots (Mk.15:24).
Crucified, "pierced through hands and feet": Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16.... Matthew 27:35, John 20:27.
- Ps.22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. (Zec.12:10)
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him.
- Jn. 20:25-26 Now Thomas (called Didymus)... he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." (Jn.19:37, 20:27)
Crucified with malefactors: Isaiah 53:12.... Mark 15:27-28.
25- Agonized in Thirst: Psalm 22:15.... John 19:28.
- Ps.22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
- Jn.19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Given gall and vinegar: Psalm 69:21.... Matthew 27:34, 48, John 19:19.
- - No bones broken: Psalm 34:20.... John 19:32-36.
- Ps 34:20 He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (Ex 12:46)
- Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
His side pierced: Zechariah 12:10....
29- Deserted by God: Psalm 22:1.... Matthew 27:46. - Ascension to Heaven: Psalms 68:18, 24:3.....Lk 24:50-51, Acts 1:11, Mk.16:19.
- Christ at the Right hand of the Father: Psalm 110:1..... Hebrews 1:2,3.
- Heb.1:2,3 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
- Galilean Ministry: Is.9:1-2, Matt.4:13-16. - Speaks in Parables: Ps.78:2-4, Matt.13:34-35.
.
- Anointed and eternal: Ps.45:6-7, Heb.1:8-12.
1. If you believe Jesus was a prophet, sage, wise man, good guy, etc., and not the Son of God . . . . then why did he refer to himself as the Son of God, quote scripture from the Old Testament revealing he was the Messiah, etc., etc. If he wasn't what he claimed, then he was definitely a liar, deceitful. Not qualities of a wise man or prophet. More like a con artist . . . I respect those who hold the opinion that Jesus is not the Son of God, but if he isn't, I don't think he fits the bill of a prophet, wise man, sage, etc. Definitely seems like a more of a lunatic . . .
So why do you think the attacks or the torture and death of those who believed in JC make him real?
What makes people/Christians who believe Jesus is the Son of God, is because for 1000's and 100's of years before his birth . . . his coming, the details of his coming, his life, his death, the way he spoke (parables) were spoken about through the prophets, and through God Our Father, in the Old Testament.
Here are just Some of those Prophecies:
Ancestors:
- The "seed of a woman": Genesis 3:15.... Galatians 4:4.
- Descendent of Abraham: Genesis 12:3, 18:18.... Acts 3:25, Matthew 1:1.
3- Descendent of Isaac: Gen.17:19, Luc.3:34.
- Descendent of Jacob: Numbers 24:17...... Luke 3:34, Matt.1:2.
-- From the Tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:33.
- Hair of the Throne of David: Isaiah 9:7.... Luke 1:32-33.
Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2.... Matthew 2:1.... Luke 2:4-7.
- To be born of a Virgin: Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18.... Luke 1:26-35.
9- Time of his birth: Daniel 9:25.... Luke 2:1:
- Dan.9:25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens" and sixty two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
- Lk 2:1-2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was the governor of Syria.) (Lk 2:3-7)
- Mat.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
[
- He shall be called a Nazarene: Judges 13:5.... Matthew 2:23.
- Jud.13:5 for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God
- Mt.2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene
Passion:
- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9.... John 12:13-14. - Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)
- Jn.12:13-14 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written. (Mt.21:1-11; Jn.12:12, Mk.11:7-9.)
- Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9... Mark 14:10, Matthew 26:14-15.
-
- Accused by false witnesses: Psalms .27:12, 35:11.... Mt 26:60-61, Mk.14:57.
- Ps.27:12 Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes, for false witnesses rise up against me, breathing out violence. (Ps.35:11)
- Mt.26:60-61 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two men came forward and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.'"
- Spat and struck: Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67.
- Isa.50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
- Mk.14:65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him. (Mt.26:27, Mk.15:17; Jn 19:1-3; 18:22)
- Hated without reason: Psalms 69:4, 35:19, 109:3-5.... John.15:24-25.
- Ps 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. (Ps.35:19, 109:3-5)
- Jn.15:23-25 He who hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: "They hated me without reason."
- Soldiers divided his garments and gambled for his clothing: Psalm 22:18... Matt.27:35 (2 Prophecies)
- Ps 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots (Mk.15:24).
Crucified, "pierced through hands and feet": Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16.... Matthew 27:35, John 20:27.
- Ps.22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. (Zec.12:10)
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him.
- Jn. 20:25-26 Now Thomas (called Didymus)... he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." (Jn.19:37, 20:27)
Crucified with malefactors: Isaiah 53:12.... Mark 15:27-28.
25- Agonized in Thirst: Psalm 22:15.... John 19:28.
- Ps.22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
- Jn.19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Given gall and vinegar: Psalm 69:21.... Matthew 27:34, 48, John 19:19.
- - No bones broken: Psalm 34:20.... John 19:32-36.
- Ps 34:20 He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (Ex 12:46)
- Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
His side pierced: Zechariah 12:10....
29- Deserted by God: Psalm 22:1.... Matthew 27:46. - Ascension to Heaven: Psalms 68:18, 24:3.....Lk 24:50-51, Acts 1:11, Mk.16:19.
- Christ at the Right hand of the Father: Psalm 110:1..... Hebrews 1:2,3.
- Heb.1:2,3 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
- Galilean Ministry: Is.9:1-2, Matt.4:13-16. - Speaks in Parables: Ps.78:2-4, Matt.13:34-35.
.
- Anointed and eternal: Ps.45:6-7, Heb.1:8-12.
Interesting! I see that 80-90% of your "prophecies" come from the gospels...that were written 40-90 years AFTER the alleged events.
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