God cannot be both all-powerful and all-loving (contradictions, believers, Earth)

[legoman]

Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend

There are many things we don't experience in the universe and therefore cannot learn about. Who cares?

God cares, if you go with the inital premise of the OP. God wants to teach us certain concepts like patience or compassion, and in order to do that suffering must exist. God teaches us about light and darkness, because it is a great analogy for good and evil, among other reasons.

Life would still be better without rape and torture.

Yes it would be. See even you have learned something by the existence of rape and torture. You have learned how life can be better. Perhaps you have hope that one day there will be no rape and torture. I have that hope.

Hope is yet another positive virtue that can only be learned by the presence of suffering.

You just excused it again: "I do know that God has the power to work any situation for the greater good of all involved, even rape and torture."

No matter what you say, what excuses you give, I'm not going to agree with you that evil such as torture and rape of children is necessary to learn any virtue. In fact, often times it does the opposite: abused children often grow up to pass on the abuse. How is that a positive lesson?

I believe much of the positive lessons won't be realized until after a person has died and then is confronted with what they have done.

Again I'm not excusing or justifying rape and torture. They are awful evil things.

What you are arguing about is the relative severity of suffering. All I am saying is that some amount of suffering is necessary if we are to learn certain positive virtues. Saying that God can work a greater good from rape or torture is not an excuse for the person who perpetrates the evil. It is simply showing how or why God may allow suffering and still be all-powerful, which is the topic of this thread.

[Hueffenhardt]

Originally Posted by legoman

This is an interesting question

I am off to bed. I shall return.

[LogicIsYourFriend]

Originally Posted by legoman

God cares, if you go with the inital premise of the OP. God wants to teach us certain concepts like patience or compassion, and in order to do that suffering must exist. God teaches us about light and darkness, because it is a great analogy for good and evil, among other reasons.

Yes it would be. See even you have learned something by the existence of rape and torture. You have learned how life can be better. Perhaps you have hope that one day there will be no rape and torture. I have that hope.

Hope is yet another positive virtue that can only be learned by the presence of suffering.

I believe much of the positive lessons won't be realized until after a person has died and then is confronted with what they have done.

Again I'm not excusing or justifying rape and torture. They are awful evil things.

What you are arguing about is the relative severity of suffering. All I am saying is that some amount of suffering is necessary if we are to learn certain positive virtues. Saying that God can work a greater good from rape or torture is not an excuse for the person who perpetrates the evil. It is simply showing how or why God may allow suffering and still be all-powerful, which is the topic of this thread.

Yes, I am mostly talking about the severity of suffering. Saying that "God" can work a greater good from rape or torture is an excuse for why "God" would create and allow rape and torture. Even if your premise that suffering is required to know virtues is solid, we could learn every virtue without such severe suffering. However, your premise is still flawed, because given an all-powerful god, the only things required are those that the god chooses.

By the way, I'd rather not know what rape and torture were if it meant they didn't exist in the world. You and I do hope that the world would be rid of such evils some day, and no doubt if either one of us were all-powerful we would make that happen in an instant. Which means, if there is an all-powerful god that exists, we are more moral than it.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend

Um.. so you're saying evil (and death) are the only reasons why experience, knowledge and learning are relevant to us?

Do you believe that evolution is about pleasure?
And for the record death is not a form of evil; death is the great equaliser.
Besidez, immortality makes morality irrelevant.

Life would still be better without rape and torture.

Would not feeling pain create a better life?
Not really, the function of pain is telling you that something is amiss.
So the function of pain (and fear) is to alarm you that you are in a possible (life) threatening situation.
So as long as you can feel pain you can be raped and tortured.

Which means, if there is an all-powerful god that exists, we are more moral than it.

Are you more moral than God by eliminating death from existence?

BTW who is more moral?
A man who knows he can do evil but doesn't (because he understands that evil only causes suffering), or a man who is simply incapable of doing evil (because of some futuristic brainwashing technology or technique)?

[11thHour]

Originally Posted by jeepgirl27

God didnt cause our suffering we did.
We chose as human we didnt need him. We wanted man to rule over man. Man will dominate man to his own injury. When the time has come all the suffering will come to an end. Of course God didnt want it to be like this.

But he knew it would happen and created it anyway.

Those saying suffering is necessary to know joy, that darkness is necessary to know light..are you saying man was destined to sin? For suffering didn't exist before sin, correct? So you are saying that god wanted us to fall and sin so that we could learn love and joy through suffering?

[Huckleberry3911948]

all powerful & all loving? i think he can--but for you is not doing it. he might not be giving what you want and he might be calling you on your stuff.
oh lord wont you buy me a mercedes benz, janis joplin sing it.

[Aeroman]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

BTW who is more moral?

A man who knows he can do evil but doesn't (because he understands that evil only causes suffering), or a man who is simply incapable of doing evil (because of some futuristic brainwashing technology or technique)?

Can God do evil?

[legoman]

Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend

Yes, I am mostly talking about the severity of suffering. Saying that "God" can work a greater good from rape or torture is an excuse for why "God" would create and allow rape and torture. Even if your premise that suffering is required to know virtues is solid, we could learn every virtue without such severe suffering. However, your premise is still flawed, because given an all-powerful god, the only things required are those that the god chooses.

By the way, I'd rather not know what rape and torture were if it meant they didn't exist in the world. You and I do hope that the world would be rid of such evils some day, and no doubt if either one of us were all-powerful we would make that happen in an instant. Which means, if there is an all-powerful god that exists, we are more moral than it.

Hi LIYF,

The way I look at it is God doesn't need an excuse. "Excuse" implies a mistake or wrong-doing, but I believe God does no wrong by allowing evil in the world, precisely because He will work that evil into a greater good - a greater good for ALL people - a greater good that would not be realized if the evil was not allowed in the first place.

You are still hung-up on the "if God was all-powerful suffering would not be needed" argument. As I explained, suffering is needed if we are to learn certain virtues. To claim that we are more moral than God because we wouldn't allow rape and torture is IMHO an overestimation of our abilities. If there is an all-powerful God (as in the premise of the OP), He is also all-wise and all-knowing. We are not all-wise and all-knowing. But even in my finite mind I can imagine scenarios where severe evil is required to achieve certain values and goals.

Here are a couple of examples:
1. Consequences for actions: God is teaching us that there are consequences for actions - severe actions lead to severe consequences - like you said things like abuse and rape often lead to generations of abuse. War leads to destruction of entire peoples. Those are severe consequences, consequences that we would not understand if we did not experience them (either ourself or by witnessing others go through it).

2. Forgiveness: this is a big one. Suppose God wants us to learn how to forgive. By the very nature of forgiveness, there must be some wrong-doing that occurs before we can forgive a person. Suffering and wrong-doing is inherent to the concept of forgiveness. To fully understand forgiveness, there must be some very severe evils that occur so that forgiveness can be experienced. Perhaps this is one reason for severe evils like rape and torture. Like I said, neither you or I are all-knowing or all-wise, so we cannot know all the ramifications and outcomes of what happens.

Now lets take a hypothetical world that you created where there was never any wrong-doing or evil, and all is good. There would be no reason for anyone to be compassionate. No one would be patient because they would get whatever they want instantly. No one would know how to forgive. No one would even know how to overcome evil. If you go to the extreme "pure bliss" view, you might describe people as in a drug-like blissful zombie state. Is that a reasonable view of what "heaven" might be?

Do you see what I'm getting at? God is first giving us an experience of evil and suffering mixed with joy and forgiveness so we will learn how to be good and loving. Any suffering we experience now will be nothing compared to the riches of His love and glory we will receive after our physical death.

(BTW I believe in the Ultimate restoration and salvation of all - no one will be left in any kind of eternal hell. This is also called Christian Universalism or Universal Reconciliation. If you are assuming an eternal hell view, then there are some problems. Also, if you are assuming there is true free will in this system, you will run into problems).

[legoman]

FYI most Christians will not have the view that I have. But most Christians also have completely wrong ideas like eternal hell and free will. Many will blame "free will" for suffering, but "free will" does not exist in a pure form, and it certainly cannot exist if there is an all-powerful all-knowing God. I don't want to get sidetracked into a free will discussion too much, although it is important if you want to understand this stuff IMHO.

Originally Posted by 11thHour

Those saying suffering is necessary to know joy, that darkness is necessary to know light..are you saying man was destined to sin?

Yes. Given an all-powerful God, how could it be any other way? I mean, did God make a mistake?

Imagine God saying: "What was I thinking creating man, they just won't stop sinning! Should have thought that through better... and don't get me started on Satan! " Perhaps a bit tongue-in-cheek, but do you think an all-powerful God is foolish like a human? Humans create plans and then have to constantly change them because things don't work out. God is not human.

For suffering didn't exist before sin, correct? So you are saying that god wanted us to fall and sin so that we could learn love and joy through suffering?

Exactly. Without suffering, we could never learn patience, endurance, compassion, forgiveness, protection, and love; and we would have no idea what true joy is because we would have nothing to compare it with.

Its not that God wants us to sin (as an end to itself), but it is necessary in order for God to ultimately achieve what He wants. If you want to get into the scriptures, you will see that God has declared all things that will ever happen (Isaiah 46:10-11), and that God works all things for His purpose (Eph 1:11). By definition this would include God preordaining us to fall and sin, so that He could work that for a greater good - for His purpose. We know this is true because God prepared the lamb (Jesus) to be sacrificed for the world, before creation ever existed (and before we ever sinned). God creates evil (Isaiah 45:7), and there are many other scriptures that say God directs peoples steps, God hardens hearts, etc. all for His purposes.

You must understand in this view God's purpose is to give us the knowledge of good and evil so that we will be good like Him. Notice in Genesis this knowledge of good and evil was contained in one tree - one root - it cannot be separated. Therefore to know how to be good, we must learn what evil is. It is inherent in the concept. If you are good, you must know what "not-good" is.

[LogicIsYourFriend]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend Do you believe that evolution is about pleasure?
And for the record death is not a form of evil; death is the great equaliser.
Besidez, immortality makes morality irrelevant.

Would not feeling pain create a better life?
Not really, the function of pain is telling you that something is amiss.
So the function of pain (and fear) is to alarm you that you are in a possible (life) threatening situation.
So as long as you can feel pain you can be raped and tortured.

But if mortality is irrelevant, then what's the point of alarms for life-threatening situations?

Are you more moral than God by eliminating death from existence?

BTW who is more moral?
A man who knows he can do evil but doesn't (because he understands that evil only causes suffering), or a man who is simply incapable of doing evil (because of some futuristic brainwashing technology or technique)?

Who is more moral? One who would stop unnecessary suffering such as child-gang-rape if they could, or one who could stop unnecessary suffering but won't?