God cannot be both all-powerful and all-loving (quote, heaven, exist)

[Sir Les]

Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt

We could not cause suffering if God had not invented suffering in the first place. God made needless suffering possible. He did not have to, but he did.

If suffering did not exist, we could not inflict it on others or ourselves. God caused suffering to exist and made it an option for us. He did not need to. Anything we could have gained from the ability to cause suffering, an all-powerful god could have made available to us without the ability to cause suffering. If not, then he is not all-powerful.

Therefore, my argument is not in error.

God said do not eat or touch, which brought about Death which was made for the disobediance of GOD by ADAM and Eve....and we are born into that...and God came to make known...to do his will and word to get out of it....what to do, and how to do it was very well shown, and what to make, and what not to make has also been made known!...and Here we are doing, touching, and making the verythings God said not to!

Who is making the suffering ...Not God!

And because the choice is really not God's fault if we do not listen to the master builder....then we are not worthy of his grace, mercies, and Love.

For how can you love something that causes so much pain?
That would be masicistic and insanity!

Your arguement is In Error...for you do not see, hear, or know the words of God!...and you do not do...there for you have the cause and effect before you!

But if we listen...and we do...and we try to make a better world by sharing and caring for all life God made...with respect and intelligence, and LOVE....and we stop polluting the planet....and we all start doing what God has asked...EDENS will be the resulting factors!
No mor sin...No more death, no more suffering...no more shame!

Now look at the Earth...and tell me honestly that it is not being polluted for bent profits and gains...and they even make sickness and suffering profitable...while asking for the very thing that creates it!
$$$$$$$$$

You still don't believe...But that is not my error now is it?...it's yours!
I have tried to sow those seeds sinlessly. to restore Eden...So I know what I'm talking about...when I tell you God loves those who do his will and fulfill his words!...Jesus said this...and it is true, when you do it sinlessly!

Yes it is like a chinese finger Puzzel...the more you sin, the more suffering is brought to bare...the more death is accounted through that error...and more are being born into that error that still has not been addressed and corrected ...

So if we break any of the commandments of God and Life according to God...then we gain sin...even if we support it we gain sin...for Jesus said even if we think it....it is a sin...for why would anyone want sin?....the only reason for sin is death....and we still have that today as was yesterday..and will be tomorrow...if we do not correct the error!

That is for US to do....or the one...and Jesus has done this...so We have one!
Now for the many!

[Aeroman]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

I'm sorry but what does love has to do with power?
I would argue that an all-loving god (who is or is not also all-powerful) could only grant us free will, which negates power totally.


If there was no suffering, why would we be motivated to learn anything?
Besidez, without suffering there would be no good and evil.

There is no kind and loving heavenly father!

And what do we learn from children getting molested?
And what does the child learn?

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by Aeroman

And what do we learn from children getting molested?

That monsters do exist.

And what does the child learn?

That molesting children is evil and that actions always have consequences.

[Hueffenhardt]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

I'm sorry but what does love has to do with power?
I would argue that an all-loving god (who is or is not also all-powerful) could only grant us free will, which negates power totally.


Originally Posted by HueffenhardtIf there was no suffering, why would we be motivated to learn anything?
Besidez, without suffering there would be no good and evil.

When you love a child who is hurting, what do you want to do? Comfort them; help them feel better; reduce some of their discomfort; end their pain. If god is all-loving, he would want to end our unnecessary pain. One might argue that all pain is necessary and has a purpose even if we don't know what it is. That might be true in the way the current universe is constructed, but an all-powerful god could have constructed any possible universe. He could have constructed a universe in which every good thing that suffering accomplishes in this universe, could be accomplished without suffering. That makes suffering unnecessary because one could get all the same purposes and needs accomplished without it. So why have it? It is unneeded.

Currently, our free will only allows us to do what is possible. There are limits to our free will. We cannot do what is unavailable for us to do. If suffering did not exist, we could not cause it. We could still have free will to do anything that is possible, but we could not cause suffering because it would not exist.

If our motivation is tied to suffering now, it is only because an all-powerful god tied them together. But, if god is all-powerful, he could have found a way to motivate us to learn without suffering.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt

He could have constructed a universe in which every good thing that suffering accomplishes in this universe, could be accomplished without suffering. That makes suffering unnecessary because one could get all the same purposes and needs accomplished without it. So why have it? It is unneeded.

You forget the fact that free will also entails the choice to not learn the lessons suffering normally would teach us.
In a universe with no suffering one does not have the choice to ignore these lessons.

The problem with philosophy is that it can become so abstract that it looses its practicality; this is also the case with your other universe.
We do not live in the universe where there is no suffering, we live in this one.

[LogicIsYourFriend]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

I'm sorry but what does love has to do with power?
I would argue that an all-loving god (who is or is not also all-powerful) could only grant us free will, which negates power totally.


Originally Posted by HueffenhardtIf there was no suffering, why would we be motivated to learn anything?
Besidez, without suffering there would be no good and evil.

So I guess in heaven, where allegedly there is no evil or suffering, there is also no learning, no good and no free will?

[Sir Les]

Originally Posted by Aeroman

There is no kind and loving heavenly father!

And what do we learn from children getting molested?
And what does the child learn?

Did Jesus not say your making a den of vipers, Robbers, and thieves to the ones holding the engraven imaged thing God said not to?

So Who is making these Evils be?...they are the ones who continually use the IDOL that creates them!

God has spoken about it...Mathew spoke about it...Jesus spoke about it, and acted on it, and would not even look at it!!!...And those who listened then , were rounded up and slaughtered by those who held it in high regards!

Now we are still in it...and the planet is witness to the transgressions and tresspasses we make onto it with our bent living in luixuries and pollution of it!

I as a Child was witness to the Evil you speak of...the molestation of myself...and my family ...By the Evils created before me being born...under the IDol....which put me on a very odd pathway...a path to find God!

For only God can deal with Evil....and sin....and those who have been touched By Evil in that manner..( a Gay pedophile) in my case, and my Father was incestual towards my sisters, which brought the devorce, and then the gay pedophile came in...to be my step father after me telling my Mother (who should love her children) accepted as husband....and he then tried again...
Only because Of God and the spirit of truth Jesus sent...did I get away!
And because I sowed those seeds sinlessly..for the right reasons as a child, who was not brought under the IDol....I fulfilled something not knowingly...But in likeness...sowing seeds for the birds...
And that has opened a very odd and enlightening Life experience for me, Seeing and knowing God exists...

"the pure of heart shall see God"...This is me.

Now because I saw God as a child...and I have witnessed Evil and sin ...in my life...and I know first hand what that means!

I have to ask God what created them to be?

And God says...Disobediance!

And I am a part of it...?.....Yes!....But I do not want Evil in my Life...And Jesus says " Do as I have Done!!"...Follow me!

And here is where I have to read what Jesus did do...and follow!
Hear what God has asked, and do!

For once you hear Jesus's words..."Those who do the will of my Father, Shall enter paradise"...You have to ask what Does God Ask of me?

Genesis 2:15 using ALL the Plants!..makes EDENS!= Genesis 9:3
And Acts 10:15 says not to profane what God has made Clean...or Called Good...for if we change something made holy...into something else (bad) then we make God a liar!

Now what plants are being oppressed in the world?
What nation or nations are also being oppressed because of Plants?
What makes destitution?
What makes poverty?
What makes dispare?
What makes EVIL?????

What does free trade mean?...
Do the words mean what they say?...and how much is your Money really worth?...if it is constantly changing its true value over its face value or engravened Value?...is this not the greatest liar of all lies?

Now... they believe their lies more than the truth!

God shares everything...Genesis 9:3///
And because I am a hier of that gift of everything...and all the plants were given with love to me...so we restore the Garden to its perfection!....who is robbing us of that estate?
Who has taken away my right to live for free, in health, and happiness as helper of God?

See...$atan has made death a constant!

Now how do we get out of this trap?

Listen to God!

Yes!!... the demons will come...and they will take your life....as they have already taken mine heart and soul without my permission! ...
But if you are sinless, and have fulfilled the words and will of God...then you are saved!...and death will not keep you...and you will then be born in the NEW heavens and on the NEW earth, because God will trust in you to do his will and word!
As Jesus has already made known ..."I'm making all things NEW".."I will make a place for you"...those who do..shall Go.
Those who don't won't!

And $atan cannot stop you from doing the will or fulfilling the word!
Once it is done...it is completed!
Acts 3:21, and Rev 17:17 commences!
Judgment and the promises for our acts...cause and effect..wrath and woe..come!

Amen?...is this not what it says in the Bible?

And so it shall be always..here!,,,but in the New it is not so, because no sin exists in it!...and never will!!!!!

Amen!

[Vic235]

All powerful and all loving to theists means God first threatened to anhialate the entire human race and then spared their lives. All powerful means God can do mass murder; all loving means you are still alive because God spared your life.

It' hostage loves bank robber analogy.

[ACEsydney]

Hueffenhardt:
Your argument is not in error. I too wish I could find holes in your reasoning (and have tried to do so for many years of my life). The fact is, the logical nature of your argument cannot be comprehended by people who choose not to open their eyes.

You propose very simple, concrete absolutes, which are clearly defined. Yet people will choose not to understand these concepts because it goes against what they believe.

The fact remains; either god is not all-loving, or he is not all-powerful, or he is neither, or he does not exist.
Based on the nature of the world around us, you can come to no other conclusion.

Thank you for puting into words the things I have thought, (and tried to convey to others) for so long. It is comforting to know that either I am not crazy, or at least I'm not the only one.

[dobeable]

Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt

We could not cause suffering if God had not invented suffering in the first place. God made needless suffering possible. He did not have to, but he did.

If suffering did not exist, we could not inflict it on others or ourselves. God caused suffering to exist and made it an option for us. He did not need to. Anything we could have gained from the ability to cause suffering, an all-powerful god could have made available to us without the ability to cause suffering. If not, then he is not all-powerful.

Therefore, my argument is not in error.

the only reason people suffer is due to karma,thats why some suffer more than others-everything is happening for a reason,