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How is the nihilists life going to be so different than that of someone under the wraps of religion or ideology? Both will get jobs, working for bosses. Pursue sexual and sensual pleasures. And die. The nihilist has no advantages in escaping the standard middle class life.
When it comes to the comfort of being a part of something or having an ideology that guides him then yes, he has no advantage. When it comes to his ability to not be held in place by moral or social contraints then it can benefit him. Which avenue is more beneficial? It depends on the situation. Life is not black and white.
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If anything ideology or religion can make one more willing to gamble with risks. It gives one more zeal and comfort. Also important social networks are built up through it.
True. There are definite benefits to being a part of a belief system and a group. I have nothing against such a situation as long as you recognize and admit that there is no ultimate truth behind it and all it offers is a potential social or emotional advantage.
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Well anyway this is 2010 America, and religion is just a social club anyway, and Americans have never been and ideological people. So "existential-nihilism" is just good old fashioned can-do Americanism.
I disagree. It is the rejection of the legitimacy of everything. Most people cannot fathom or would not accept such a line of reasoning.
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Nihilism has taken us in opposite directions. You the lover of individualism have decided to merge with the herd by becoming purely biological, while I hating individualism have been forced to become an individual by embracing pure morality against the actual world. You hate the idea of integrating with the herd, I love it.
Astute observation.
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Hegel gave a pretty good critique of my worldview:
"18. People of conscience strive for social harmony, sometimes to the extreme of puritanism. They are often highly valued, but sometimes they go too far and try to guide the world towards pettiness. Virtue should also be aware of the ways of the world, and live comfortably within the world with tolerance and forgiveness.
19. The weakness of Ethical Consciousness is that it sometimes opposes worldliness to the extreme of moral arrogance. It harshly judges the joyful person who interacts with the world, who engages the world in a game of skill and competence which gives meaning to the world. It turns its back on the heroic soldier because of minor infractions."
You seem to have a fairly dismal outlook on life. Have you ever thought of concerning yourself with the positive rather than dwelling on the negative? While there is bad in the world, there is also a lot of good. There are many things that make life worth living and worth working to survive. Some examples-love, work, combating evil, the pursuit of philosophy and scientific inquiry etc. Sure life is cruel and hellish, but that's only if you focus on the negative aspects in the world. You will find that life is worth putting up with if you begin focus your time and energy on good things rather than focusing solely on the bad.
The mass majority of humanity is beneath people like you and I.
June finds it somewhat insulting to read such a comment. The mass majority of humanity who truly feel the way the OP claims to feel seek out solutions, or help in finding them. Or they wallow.
What is just so intriguing to June is the fact that for such a nihilist who is in such existential angst and despair, the OP has an awful lot of (albeit, disjointed "Philosophy 101") rhetorical energy...Most individuals that June has encountered who are in such a 'dire' state are barely able to get out of bed, let alone post so eloquently...
June finds it somewhat insulting to read such a comment. The mass majority of humanity who truly feel the way the OP claims to feel seek out solutions, or help in finding them. Or they wallow.
What is just so intriguing to June is the fact that for such a nihilist who is in such existential angst and despair, the OP has an awful lot of (albeit, disjointed "Philosophy 101") rhetorical energy...Most individuals that June has encountered who are in such a 'dire' state are barely able to get out of bed, let alone post so eloquently...
Well I'm pretty much at the point of not being able to get out of bed. But having no school or work, or even reason to leave the house, that leaves plenty of time in my hands.
As for my fellow nihilist "The mass majority of humanity is beneath people like you and I. ", we are in fact exact opposites. I see his beliefs of cynical evopsych masculine sexuality as the dominant ideology in the USA. That is the importance it holds to me. It has the power and power makes its own truth. I certainly don't consider myself unique, special, or superior in being aware of what the vast majority of humanity is doing openly in broad day-light. We live in a cynical, post-ideological, post-religious, post-historical world. There are some good things to be said about it. It provides a general level of prosperity and security. Although how much is that to the credit of the present, how much simply them leeching off history?
How can an ideology dominate the end of ideology? Well cynical anti-ideology claims to be the last ideology. I suppose all ideologies claim that. But I'm convinced by its brute physical power. It doesn't take any brilliance to recognize the ideology that pop culture bombards us with.
What separates me from humanity is that I am not ok with the cynical hedonism that the vast majority of humanity is ok with. And I see no escape in some individualistic niche. Does this make me above or superior? In a moral sense- yes. But morality is subjective and worthless. In what counts, I'm just going to be weeded out of existence. As for do-gooders. I don't really have any respect for random acts of kindness. They just help make an intolerable world more tolerable. But for those few, those happy few, who still follow some system and worldview. I have nothing but good things to say about them. Those who have ideology in a post-ideological world, are in everyway superior to me. I consider them "wrong". The material balance of power is simply laid out against the ideological do-gooders. But certainly my "rightness" makes me unfit to even lick the boots of their "wrongness". But indeed I do believe they are wrong and the situation is hopeless. That makes me a far worse person then those few. But their numbers are so small, their age has past, history is over, and nothing can be done. They are a passed generation dying off every day. I don't wish it to be true, but it is. They are right morally but wrong materially. I am right morally and right materially. But that is a toxic combination for me.
hang in there enamdar.
it sounds like you've had it with this capitalistic society, hard to blame you. i hope you don't regret your retreat much; i love mine.
Well I don't see how one can retreat and survive. One needs employment and wages to live. Not that anyone likes leeches, but the one part of Puritanism that still remains in America is the Protestant work ethic, and so I don't know a people on earth who look with more disdain on those who willingly chose not to work. So the only one to leech off are my parents, and that will end soon enough.
If you know how to retreat from this society and survive, I am all ears.
Well I don't see how one can retreat and survive. One needs employment and wages to live. Not that anyone likes leeches, but the one part of Puritanism that still remains in America is the Protestant work ethic, and so I don't know a people on earth who look with more disdain on those who willingly chose not to work. So the only one to leech off are my parents, and that will end soon enough.
If you know how to retreat from this society and survive, I am all ears.
Further down the front index of this site there is a Self-Sufficiency and Preparedness forum. Folk there can teach you how to get lost in the woods and eaten by a bear just fine.
I agreed with most of what you said up to this point:
It seems once you embrace the attitude that life is meaningless, so I will eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, you are basically back to the human starting point. Human beings already are designed to pursue their biological survival interests, they don't need existential nihilism to do that. So I never really saw the logic in the position "I see life as meaningness, and that makes me embrace it more". That seems more like a logical retreat than a conclusion. But maybe thats a retreat that the selfish gene forces us to make, for any other conclusion would be dire to its' interests.
If after all these centuries, and so much material progress man's ethics remains at the same level, perhaps even declining, then I see no reason that this generation is suddenly going to get it. If anything my generation seems to be the most comfortable with the human condition and rather cynical. So I certainly don't expect some moral amelioration of the human condition to come out of Generation Y. So if we are stuck with the world, cultute, and ethos of the present, what good life can one live other than gouging oneself on biological pleasure?
Maybe I'm too harsh on humanity seeing them as ideas and spirits rather than gene machines. So I wont hate or condemn them anymore than I would a wolf or a hog. But I certainly can't live among them. So whats to become of me?
You really need to go back and read Sir Les' post on page 2. I know it's a bit of a rambler but what he says does make sense. As a Christian, what I see reading your initial post is someone who needs to know God, and that God is LOVE. What I see as a human being with real human problems is severe depression and angst. I see it because I feel it. God gives the why, and we then learn the how to.
This life does suck outside of knowing God and Jesus Christ. Sometimes it sucks even when you do know God and Jesus Christ. But the love of God and your fellow man never wavers. That's what it's all about......loving God and each other. I have always had disdain for people, like you, but now I love them all!! I'm not talking about this warm and fuzzy mushy kind of love....it's a love that can only be experienced through God.
I'm a Christian universalist and I believe all will be reconciled to God eventually. But we can have and experience good things in this life but you have to learn to be happy where you're at and with what you have. Jesus taught that the two greatest commandments are to love God and love each other. When you do this, everything else follows. Seriously. It's amazing. Try talking to God, ask Him to reveal Himself to you.
Maybe you didn't want a Christian perspective at all but it's all I know and it works. It's the only way. It's the only thing that makes sense of this life. We're here because we're being prepared for the next life....we must suffer the wrongs and hurts to know what is good and right. As far as what God wants.....he sent His only Son to die for ALL of us so that we CAN be reconciled to Him. He wants ALL to know Him, and we ALL will.
We can know Him now and tap into a little bit of that enormous love that He has for His creation. I'm telling you, it will turn your heart, mind, soul and spirit around and make you a new person in Christ. You'll still have human doubts and emotions, like we all do but the love is always there and those doubts and emotions pass very quickly until you have another down day. Those are the days you talk to God, tell Him how you feel and pray, pray, pray. We should talk to Him on good days and on bad days but I find myself really whining to Him on my bad days. And it makes me feel better to whine to my Father.
What is to become of you? You will be fine. Get to know God.
I don't want to universalize my experience. It seems most so-called nihilists who supposedly see the nothingness of life, decide to embrace it all the more.
There strange doublethink logic leads them to proclaim that meaninglessness gives the meaning. I think thats just biology kicking in.
You are mired in run-of-the-mill "there is no point" nihilism. You see the horrors of our reality and our species and it turns your stomach. You also can find no incontrovertible truth to cling to or that defines our existence. This leaves you lost, adrift and disgusted. Classic post-modern existential nihilistic malaise envelops you like a blanket.
I am a post-nihilist. I have gone through every one of your thoughts, feelings and rationalizations. I realize what a waste of time it is. You can sit around being miserable or you can examine what makes men content. You obviously are not content. What causes blood and endorphins to rush to your brain? What makes you want to move? What has caused contentment in your life when you felt it? For me it was always when I was part of a group and had power. When my social opportunities were at their maximum it increased my access to support, mates and experiences. It is intoxicating. What makes me different than your average person enjoying said visceral pleasures is that I have investigated every possible philosophical avenue and realize the absurdity and pointlessness of our existence whereas they are the equivalent of stupid animals.
A man is only respected and his company only coveted if he exhibits prowess in something that personally appeals to or offers some advantage to other people. A person only desires and seeks out the company of others if they are of the same social level and therefore can act as allies or if the others in question are of a higher status and can be used to increase one's own social opportunities or if it satisfies some personal inclination that they have. Merely being "nice" is not enough. In fact, this can often be a hindrance as people subconsciously view it as weakness. It is the last refuge of someone who has nothing else to offer and must obseqiously ply for attention by using his niceness as a strategy to curry favor and gain social acceptance. It is the dominant men who lead and pursue without apology who enjoy the fruits of this world and gain the respect of their peers.
Every action, thought and desire exhibited by an individual can be deconstructed down to its evolutionary psychology roots. We are merely organisms who seek to increase our chances for survival, comfort and advantageous positioning. I believe that emotional attachment and societal morals and norms are complicated survival mechanisms that have arisen from many millions of years of evolution. They facilitate personal bonds which increase the social support that an individual has which in turn increases their survival rate. They are merely strategies that prove an individual's devotion to the group which in turn proves one's value. It is akin to a bird showing off its colors to a potential mate; it is preening and nothing more. There is no proof that any truths or absolutes are inherent in our reality either through divine mandate or natural existence.
You obviously aren't stupid to have come to the conclusions that you have come to. There are several branches of nihilism one can go down; do what you will. Is it all meaningless in the end? Of course it is. But, it's not like you have anything better to do. Would you rather conquer and play the game or sit on your couch and stare at a wall? Why not embrace biology? After all, it is all we can actually prove. Or maybe you should destroy yourself. All of it matters for naught.
I advise that you disregard these predictable moralists who cling to belief systems because they crave structure, predictability and security. They are weak. Their cries of love and God only spew from their mouths because they are a part of the cult of theism and are enamored with its supposed purity. Ironically, I actually hope that God exists. I can't wait to spit in His face for the predicament He has left us in and for how He has failed us. Rebellion. "I gladly return the ticket." - Ivan Karamazov.
Last edited by Renaldo5000; 06-05-2010 at 07:37 PM..
I do not see a humanity held back by religion, ideology, or "niceness".
Admittedly, a lot of individuals aren't. But, the ones who do find refuge in those things do so as they have been indoctrinated from birth or because they have not been able to thrive. They rationalize their own weakness and parlay it into a social strategy only because it confers benefits. They are being just as selfish as the evo-psych people and they don't even know it. They are deluded.
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Originally Posted by enamdar
I see myself perhaps as the last ideologue caught in a world of yous. I guess when you get down to it, neither of us wants to join the herd, although we define the herd in exact opposite terms. You see a world of mes, I see world of yous.
Do you want people to follow a laid out and easy-to-digest ideology that will limit their more unsavory behaviors? Do you care if said ideology has a speck of truth to it or that it muzzles human free will and action?
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Originally Posted by enamdar
What specifically is the "nihilist" solution?
To do whatever you will. Like I said, if you wish to mope about the more pathetic aspects of our species then you are free to do so. I personally think it is a waste of time.
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Originally Posted by enamdar
How can you complain bout the evils of the world and yet focus your attacks not on the ones who bring misery to others but on "predictable moralists who cling to belief systems"
Because that morality and the religion that arose from it has absolutely no legitimacy and is the refuge of the weak. It was created by the weak to counter the strong and then some people found out a way to package and sell it with laws and myths binding it together. How can you possibly respect that institution or the gullible who slavishly follow it?
While I, like you, am somewhat appalled by the more insidious biological drives of our species (maybe civilization has instilled some morality in my brain that is indelibly ingrained), at least I can see a reason for and evidence behind it.
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Originally Posted by enamdar
Yes Ivan Karamazov does spit in God's face. But not out of "rebellion". Not to prove he is some Nietzchean super-man. But because of the suffering of the innocents
I am definately affected by the suffering of the innocent's argument. An ominpotent and loving creator would never allow an infant to be brutally treated and murdered as has happened in the history of our species. But, I admit that it is my pride and arrogance more than anything that directs me to reject God. We have both stared into the void. You are saddened whereas I want to destroy.
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Originally Posted by enamdar
Ivan has sympathy for the Grand Inquisitor who would turn the whole world into a totalitarian slave-state so long as the loss of free-will can buy suffering man dull child-like stupid happiness.
Nobody has ever refuted the argument in that chapter. He doomed us by giving us free will. By putting us in this reality and imbuing us with our weaknesses He has made it impossible for us to find or know Him in a consistent manner. This is yet one more reason why He and the belief systems based upon Him are not worth following.
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Originally Posted by enamdar
My answer to a little girl freezing in her own excrement, betrayed by her own parents, can not be to go out into the world and find meaning by dominating women sexually and men politically simply to suck pleasure out of their pain like a vampire.
But, don't you see? It is my only avenue. The Creator (if He exists) has left us in this predicament. We are enthralled by biology, without His consistent guidance, and hopelessly lost. I have contempt for it all; for my fellow man, my drives and my Creator. But, my drives are the only thing I feel so what else do I have?
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Originally Posted by enamdar
The only god this world has is the selfish gene. What good is it to spit at the theist God who does not exist and serve the Gene god who does?
I don't serve it. I dabble with it and am free to walk away at any time. I realize what an absurd farce it is.
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Originally Posted by enamdar
In the past man spoke gently and acted brutally. Now we have no ideology to deceive. Our brutality is out in the open. And yet perhaps we do not act so badly as times in the past.
So, you view the end of ideology as the disintegration of human civilization and that we will become completely barbarous again? The only service that belief systems provide for me is that the more moralistic ones keep my fellows in line which minimizes damage to my body or property.
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Originally Posted by enamdar
Is not "evil" nothing more than individualism?
And am I not being an individual by defying history and majority? So who is more evil than me?
Evil is judged presently or historically through the prism of whatever morality the viewer holds. It is subjective and don't worry yourself over it.
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Originally Posted by enamdar
You don't try to spin your own morality. There is only one morality. What your society commands.
Very true.
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Originally Posted by enamdar
But if the majority believes in life centering around sexual sadism and brutality, the right thing to do is just accept the will of the people. Why am I such a wannabe tyrant? Why can't I stop being an individual and just accept what I know is right?
I could only go so far. I accepted their version of "truth". But I couldn't accept the necessary actions based on their "truth".
But, you have already transcended these things. You are free of the stupidity of biology and groupthink. I guess the real question is can you overcome your despair at the reality of our species and find something to pursue?
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--Big time into defeatest "biological drives" such as the one, mentioned below:
Get to know God.