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Old 06-11-2010, 09:00 AM
 
16,301 posts, read 22,644,251 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Logic God is NOT responsible for what man does.
If you give you children their inheritance are you responsible if they waste it?
So why blame God because man has handled His word decietfully.
After all Jeremiah warned us of the lying pen of the scribes.
Every point you made is 100% accurate without the existence of any gods and validates the absence of any god. Just a game of words.
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Old 06-11-2010, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
12,587 posts, read 8,413,122 times
Reputation: 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
If you give you children their inheritance are you responsible if they waste it?
If you gave them their inheritance KNOWING they would waste it....yes! Would you buy your son a racing car if you were able to see into the future and know that he would kill himself with it? Would you be classed as a responsible parent if you did that?
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Old 06-11-2010, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 4,793,054 times
Reputation: 2019
I think it is rather pointless to contemplate why suffering is necessary. Suffering just is. It is part of life. Everyone suffers to one degree or another. Sometimes we create our own suffering; sometimes circumstances dictate it. Rather than trying to find some mystical or arcane reason for it, it is more important to determine how I am going to respond to it. Do I sit there and wallow in it, hope some spirit will alleviate it or do I attempt to overcome it? For me, attempts to overcome it has been my response. I'm certainly not going to sit there going "oh woe is me" or wait around for it to go away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Also just because He gets angry does not mean He is not loving... I get angry at my kids, but I still love them...
Ya know, I've heard this said by Christians many times as justification. Yes, I get angry with my children and I do discipline them. Sometimes that discipline has taken the form of letting them fail. That's all fine and good.

However, I have also heard this same statement used to justify the doctrine of hell. Sorry, that dog won't hunt. No matter how angry or dissappointed I have become with my children, I would never punish them FOREVER, especially if it was over a matter of what they believed, nor would any loving parent. Disicpline is love. Punishment is not love; it is vengence.

Last edited by Fullback32; 06-11-2010 at 12:06 PM..
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,042 posts, read 3,451,185 times
Reputation: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Thought not!

OK, I've looked into it...

cre·ate (kr-t)tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates 1. To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.
2. To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.
3. To invest with an office or title; appoint.
4. To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.

adj. Archaic
create - definition of create by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.



Definition of create (verb)

forms: created; created; creating
to produce; to design; to make; to manufacture
Definition of underestimate,use,appreciate,tantalizing,connote,e xpect,level,sum,create,inform

I have drawn my conclusions and conclude that you are wrong.



I have no belief in gods.

That is a prettly lame way of looking into the meaning of a word Rafius, what did it take you all of two minutes.

I could give you other definitions from other sources but I am not going to do your homework for you.

This is a perfect example of the saying ingnorance is bliss.
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,042 posts, read 3,451,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
If your definition of "God" is different then it doesn't apply to you, but many people view "God" as an omnipotent creator of everything, meaning everything is exactly the way 'he' wants it. If he's omnipotent and he wanted things differently, he would simply change things. That includes evil.

If you think your god is not the creator of all things (including evil), or you think your god is not capable of eliminating evil, then your beliefs do not apply. But if you do believe in such a god...
Well here is the catch Logic, God wants to make man in His image and likeness. God is a FREE will being and in order to make man in His image and likeness God gave man a free will.

What you and others are doing is complaining because God gave you freedom. What would you rather have been a robot?

yes many christian beleive God has things just the way He wants it, but that is not what Jesus states.

Jesus taught us to pray thy will be done on earth just like it is in heaven. this is not a redundant prayer. Gods WILL is NOT being done in the earth.

Those who beleive that Gods will is being done are in error; and you guys have latched onto that error and make the same complaint I do towards this error.

Yes I do not beleive God is the creator of evil, Jesus tells us so, but alas people keep listening to the writer of the OT and refuse to hear Him.

And God is capable of eliminating evil and showed mankind just how to do that.

Love your enemies

If everyone would do this then all evil done by mankind would disapear.

I know you will argue but if God is all powerful why does He not just make all mankind love one another and thus do away with this evil.

So I ask you would you rather be a robot or free?
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,042 posts, read 3,451,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Yes, of course it works...providing you are prepared to change, willy-nilly, the accepted meanings of words. I bet if you asked 99% of the people on this planet what the definition of the word "create" is, they will tell you that it means the same as the two dictionary examples that I gave you (as do all the Bible translations). You, for reasons that are plainly clear i.e, you don't want your god to be associated with evil, decide that the word means the exact opposite of the accepted norm, as in divide, destroy, cut down or cut out. Well you might consider this....

"For through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him."

Perhaps the Bible writers forgot to add....."Oh, apart from the bad things" eh??



So you think just because the majority would agree with you that makes it correct. Thats funny because the majority have alway been proven to be wrong.

It not because I don't want God to be associated with evil it is because Jesus says a good tree CANNOT bring forth EVIL fruit.

What part of CANNOT do you not understand?

Yes God created everything, and everything He created WAS GOOD.

And Jesus did add except for the bad things, which I have already gone over a few times with you but you have not made an answer to any one of them.
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,042 posts, read 3,451,185 times
Reputation: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Of course he is!! Was not Frankenstein responsible for the monster? The difference between your god and Frankenstein is that Frankenstein can be excused somewhat because he didn't know that his creation was going to turn out bad. Your god on the other hand DID know that his creation was going to turn out bad, not once but in fact.... TWICE.

He creates them the first time knowing that they would turn out bad then kills off every living thing save 8 people to get rid of the problem that he knew would happen then starts again afresh, knowing full well that EXACTLY the same problem would happen again. Brilliant huh??

You sound like you would rather be a robot then free, but I would suggest you really think about that.

Your complaint can be boiled down to I am pissed off because I have a free will; whether you beleive that freedom was given of God or not.
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:39 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,042 posts, read 3,451,185 times
Reputation: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
If you gave them their inheritance KNOWING they would waste it....yes! Would you buy your son a racing car if you were able to see into the future and know that he would kill himself with it? Would you be classed as a responsible parent if you did that?

Again your complaint is you were given a free will, that is insanity.

You blame God for knowing man might use that free will He gave him to disobey Him/God.

Man was given the freedom to choose, don't eat live, eat die, man ate and you blame God because He gave man a free will.

So you have two choices

Robot

OR

Free

Seems to me you would have rather been a robot with no will of your own.


Try being a robot sometime and let me know how that turns out for ya.
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Old 06-11-2010, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
3,961 posts, read 4,633,063 times
Reputation: 2369
The idea that man's freewill is what leads to suffering is nonsense. For one, the christian religion says god knows someone's past, present and future. There's a quote by Edmund Burke that says, 'the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.' If god is good, then it follows that he would stop suffering. Why even allow someone to be born if he knows their future actions will cause immense suffering? There are only two choices:

1. God exists, but said deity is a sadist.

2. There is no god and suffering has no higher purpose and no product of not following god.

Number 2 makes the most sense. And the freewill argument excludes suffering caused by the multitude of diseases and natural catastrophes. Case in point, humans didn't cause Hurricane Katrina.
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Old 06-11-2010, 06:18 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,108,072 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Well here is the catch Logic, God wants to make man in His image and likeness. God is a FREE will being and in order to make man in His image and likeness God gave man a free will.

What you and others are doing is complaining because God gave you freedom. What would you rather have been a robot?

yes many christian beleive God has things just the way He wants it, but that is not what Jesus states.

Jesus taught us to pray thy will be done on earth just like it is in heaven. this is not a redundant prayer. Gods WILL is NOT being done in the earth.

Those who beleive that Gods will is being done are in error; and you guys have latched onto that error and make the same complaint I do towards this error.

Yes I do not beleive God is the creator of evil, Jesus tells us so, but alas people keep listening to the writer of the OT and refuse to hear Him.

And God is capable of eliminating evil and showed mankind just how to do that.

Love your enemies

If everyone would do this then all evil done by mankind would disapear.

I know you will argue but if God is all powerful why does He not just make all mankind love one another and thus do away with this evil.

So I ask you would you rather be a robot or free?
I'd rather people just never get THE URGE to hurt each other. That wouldn't affect free will.

There are lots of things that people don't get the urge to do. Hurting others is not one of them. What's one less urge?

You'd still have plenty of choices in life without the urge to hurt others. Why do you feel it's necessary to have the choice of "do I rape and torture her or say 'hi'?"

I don't see how you can say the world is better when people have the urge to hurt others. Or that horrific accidents happen at no fault of any person. Why do these things make the world better?
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