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Old 06-04-2010, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
960 posts, read 480,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
I sometimes feel in the middle - I do not believe that all suffering is there as a result of rebellion or to make us pure - some definitely is -- however there are some that suffer unjustly through no fault of their own (e.g starving, abused children) and that is what it is - as Christy says that is life .

Sown in corruption ............ raised in incorruption
I read a great article on suffering by AP Adams and though it is still difficult to know of the suffering of children, it helped for me to understand better.

He said that if only those that did bad things suffered, then there really is no compassion toward them. We might offer an encouraging...."you will get through this, it won't last forever..." type of thing but we really wouldn't be terribly compassionate. We wouldn't and couldn't feel a lot of compassion and even pain for what they are going through. For someone to lose a child, that is one of the worst things to go through, and that brings out the most compassion within us. God watched, even sent his son to die a cruel death which he didn't deserve. We can identify with that for we have all seen the innocent suffer.

To me, suffering certainly does and has served to keep us humble, and view/know the FULL spectrum of suffering.

Does it then make suffering easier to endure or watch others endure? No, but believing that all suffering will be recompensed more than adequately in the future gives me peace in reflective moments. Paul hinted at glory that would be received that would more than make up for any insults, pain we receive in this age. That's comforting.

But anger has its uses to. Everyone is at a different state/level in how they view life and that's the way it's supposed to be. When everyone understands the why's and how's of life, all pain will be a thing of the past.

Of course this is what I've come to believe. I believe that God is in control of ALL things, not just some. The majority of Christians and non Christians believe that He's just letting us muddle around in a mess we created all on our own. But what does that say about God? To me, he created us and if He didn't want us to mess up, and we did, idid He fail in what He intended?

I know many think he created us a blank slate to create ourselves, I don't see how that's possible, but that's just me.
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Old 06-04-2010, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,852 posts, read 3,202,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
I am with you Christy. I dont get it. Seems that the answer, it is gods will is some peoples way of dealing with it, they NEED to think that. Me? No I dont need an explanation, horrors happen, it is life, not gong to be rosey for all. What I dont understand, some say this is a life Lesson, to show us pain or to make us learn sympathy or compassion. So how many more thousands of years do people have to suffer. We already have learned the life lesson. I am a mother of 4, I punish my kids to make them learn, but NEVER would I hurt,starve,kill, torture others to prove a point. That is just cruel and evil.
I agree with you 100%...teaching that there is some big god plan purpose in the horrific suffering that goes on in life is just a delusional reality and frankly makes the biblegod look extremely and utterly phsychotic.

How anyone could justify this type of behavior by an alleged "loving god" and expect anyone with a logical/rational mind to worship him is beyond my comprehension. The masses must truly be slaves in order to worship and continue following one such as this.
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Old 06-04-2010, 03:02 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,968,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I agree with you 100%...teaching that there is some big god plan purpose in the horrific suffering that goes on in life is just a delusional reality and frankly makes the biblegod look extremely and utterly phsychotic.

How anyone could justify this type of behavior by an alleged "loving god" and expect anyone with a logical/rational mind to worship him is beyond my comprehension. The masses must truly be slaves in order to worship and continue following one such as this.
ChristyGrl, I'm really curious why you think suffering happens then. Especially given you believe in some type of "godforce".

Does evil solely happen because of man? What about earthquakes and natural disasters? No real reason other than natural causes? Does the "godforce" care about any of this? Or you just don't care to think about it? I don't really understand your position other than you think the bible is not real.
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Old 06-04-2010, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,852 posts, read 3,202,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
ChristyGrl, I'm really curious why you think suffering happens then. Especially given you believe in some type of "godforce".

Does evil solely happen because of man? What about earthquakes and natural disasters? No real reason other than natural causes? Does the "godforce" care about any of this? Or you just don't care to think about it? I don't really understand your position other than you think the bible is not real.
Yes Lego...you are correct...I do still believe there is something bigger than myself. Do I believe that something is found and described in the book called the bible...ABSOLUTELY NOT!! The simple truth of the matter is....I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THAT "FORCE" IS AND NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE...that is the point I was trying to make.

It's a proven fact that we are bound by universal laws...laws of nature, laws of gravity, laws of motion, etc.

Take a look at the world around you Lego...where does the suffering originate? You will clearly see that most if not all evil and suffering originates with human beings and their actions towards others...can you deny this fact?

What about earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes, etc....that is nature and there are natural causes for the changes in weather. Are you trying to say that you think god causes these natural happenings of the earth?
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Old 06-04-2010, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Boise
1,889 posts, read 2,017,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I'm having a discussion over in R&P about why there is suffering in this world, and if this means an all-powerful/all-loving God cannot exist. I'm wondering what people think here. Of course the atheist OP says that an all-loving/all-powerful God would not allow suffering to exist, therefore an all-loving/all-powerful God cannot exist.

But my counterpoint is that suffering must exist if we are to learn certain character traits and virtures: things like Compassion (caring for those who suffer), patience (longsuffering), Endurance (bearing through suffering), etc. Without suffering we would not fully learn or understand these attributes.

Another response: If God is all-powerful, He could just give us compassion (or whatever) without suffering. But IMHO this makes no sense because compassion has a component of suffering within its own definition. The one who is compassionate feels sorrow (and suffers) for the one who is suffering. Therefore compassion cannot exist without at least a knowledge and experience of suffering. You can't get away from it. Positive virtues come out of suffering.

And scripture confirms it:

Romans 5:2 And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope.

Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Ecc 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


And thus we see the purpose of suffering and evil, and why God would allow and even intend for us to suffer (temporarily): suffering develops character and virtue, and makes things perfect. Similar to a process of refinement I guess.

Comments?
You have to consider a couple things here. Suffering, or otherwise evil are necessary to also have good. In other words, good is dependent on evil. which you indeed have proven. So for god to be all loving or otherwise "all good" means that god, to exist as "he" does now (being all good) is an existence that is dependent on evil. And if something is dependent on something else, it cannot be all powerful.
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Old 06-04-2010, 04:11 PM
 
4,771 posts, read 2,786,554 times
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The Lord God created all things in the Heavens and the earth and things we do not even know about today..... and then he created man in his image which is of his Spirit,..........THEN HE RESTED...... every thing was done for man and his Heaven,,,,, Then Adam sinned and was left to the earth with the dominion of the devil and his fallen angels to the earth...... and God retreated,,,,,,, then he sent Jesus to take back the authority which was lost by Adams sin,,,,,And Jesus won the honor that Adam had lost Which Jesus gained the Authority of Heaven and the earth,,,,, The Lord God could have distroyed Man and Adam sin but he did not , he could have distroyed the devil and his spiritual kingdoms on the earth but he did not, BECAUSE Jesus gained the authority of the earth and Heaven and with that authority every thing once again will be done for man and those believers that come to the hope and promises of the creation once had, and with that the devil of this earth is left as a challenge to Man because evey thing is done for Man once again through the promise of the New Creation..... That is why there is suffering of the earth because the Lord God is there and he is willing to end all suffering, Just turn to him and he will end suffering, ... See unbelief is also a sin and this rejects relief from Lord God....Got a passion for suffering than turn to Lord God for he is the promise for peace .............
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Old 06-04-2010, 04:39 PM
 
2,318 posts, read 562,366 times
Reputation: 540
I believe their is a Creator and I call Him God . But I don't understand Him, because my mind is not as intellegent as His .

if we suffer because of sin, than why do animals suffer ?

Will war still be going on in heaven in the afterlife ? It happened once when 1/3 left heaven with lucifer .

After armagedden and the 1000 year reign Lucifer will be released again and another war with the heavens will happen .

So the afterlife will continue to be in turmor just like it is today .

I still think we are created and Gods the Master , I pray to Him for help to deal with life, not for favors . I have wittnessed the spirit world and it is real so it matters not to me what anyone else thinks or believes . I do learn from some .
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Old 06-04-2010, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Texas
1,296 posts, read 1,210,584 times
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Not that I'm a believer or anything, but if you want to know the cause for all the problems in the world, just take a good look in the mirror. No, not you personally (probably not anyways ), but you're a member of the same species responsible for all of society's ills.

Suffering isn't necessary to make anyone appreciative of anything; it isn't necessary at all. What would you think of me if I starved my dog for about week so he'd appreciate me more for feeding him? Maybe he's not being grateful enough for the few meals a day he gets, not to mention some of my own grub I choose to share with him.

What would you think of a deity that did such things with his creation?
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Old 06-04-2010, 09:01 PM
 
Location: The Ether
250 posts, read 202,179 times
Reputation: 236
I can't believe that in five pages on suffering no one brought up Buddhism. Well here you go.

The Four Noble Truths
  1. There is suffering (dukkha).
  2. There is a cause of suffering (craving).
  3. There is the cessation of suffering (nirvana).
  4. There is the eightfold path leading to the cessation of suffering.


And a nice quote from Wikipedia on the nature of suffering.

  1. The Nature of Suffering (Dukkha):
    "This is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering."[4][5]
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Old 06-05-2010, 01:07 AM
 
6,031 posts, read 4,709,633 times
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If suffering is necessary then why did god create the garden of eden, in which there was no suffering pre-fall?
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