Do you understand why suffering is necessary? (salvation, Isaiah, atheist)

[legoman]

I'm having a discussion over in R&P about why there is suffering in this world, and if this means an all-powerful/all-loving God cannot exist. I'm wondering what people think here. Of course the atheist OP says that an all-loving/all-powerful God would not allow suffering to exist, therefore an all-loving/all-powerful God cannot exist.

But my counterpoint is that suffering must exist if we are to learn certain character traits and virtures: things like Compassion (caring for those who suffer), patience (longsuffering), Endurance (bearing through suffering), etc. Without suffering we would not fully learn or understand these attributes.

Another response: If God is all-powerful, He could just give us compassion (or whatever) without suffering. But IMHO this makes no sense because compassion has a component of suffering within its own definition. The one who is compassionate feels sorrow (and suffers) for the one who is suffering. Therefore compassion cannot exist without at least a knowledge and experience of suffering. You can't get away from it. Positive virtues come out of suffering.

And scripture confirms it:

Romans 5:2 And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope.

Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Ecc 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

And thus we see the purpose of suffering and evil, and why God would allow and even intend for us to suffer (temporarily): suffering develops character and virtue, and makes things perfect. Similar to a process of refinement I guess.

Comments?

[meerkat2]

Legoman,

I agree with you ... but you will not convince someone who does not believe in the truth of the bible by quoting the bible

[legoman]

Originally Posted by meerkat2

Legoman,

I agree with you ... but you will not convince someone who does not believe in the truth of the bible by quoting the bible

LOL I know. That's why I haven't really quoted any scripture in the other thread. Trying to go more from the logical angle. Example:

Compassion is defined as feeling sorrow (ie. suffering) for someone else who is suffering. Therefore logically, we cannot know what compassion is if we do not know or experience what suffering is. Therefore logically, if God wants us to know compassion, He must also give us an experience of suffering.

Is my logic sound here? Or does throwing the attribute of "all-powerful" onto God mean you can throw logic out the window?

[ahigherway]

Last night I was re-listening to the late Bill Britton, preaching on the eternal purposes of God. His message is that God has/is creating a people who learn how to bear suffering. And that suffering is probably somehow a basic element of God's nature. He knows about suffering, and He does not spare us this either, in order for us to become Sons of God.

Deep stuff.

Blessings, as you are a light unto others who are drawn to you in your posts,
brian

[meerkat2]

Originally Posted by legoman

LOL I know. That's why I haven't really quoted any scripture in the other thread. Trying to go more from the logical angle. Example:

Compassion is defined as feeling sorrow (ie. suffering) for someone else who is suffering. Therefore logically, we cannot know what compassion is if we do not know or experience what suffering is. Therefore logically, if God wants us to know compassion, He must also give us an experience of suffering.

Is my logic sound here? Or does throwing the attribute of "all-powerful" onto God mean you can throw logic out the window?

Just had a thought

God is Love - Scripture says he is all powerful, I do not think it says he is all-loving - His argument from a christian basis seems flawed and does not prove the absence of God. Just disproves that God can be all loving and all powerful -



He is love by being all powerful He is the potter and we the clay he makes a vessel for dishonour and another of the same lump for honour.

So saying that he is all loving is not actually what God is about.

I will be back later .......

[Mr5150]

Originally Posted by meerkat2

Just had a thought

God is Love - Scripture says he is all powerful, I do not think it says he is all-loving - His argument from a christian basis seems flawed and does not prove the absence of God. Just disproves that God can be all loving and all powerful -



He is love by being all powerful He is the potter and we the clay he makes a vessel for dishonour and another of the same lump for honour.

So saying that he is all loving is not actually what God is about.

I will be back later .......

We have a winner!

The atheist makes his strawman. Then he sets it on fire and thinks he has disproved God.

The Bible indicates that God is not all loving. He gets angry, jealous and has been known to smite a person or two.

[ChristyGrl]

Originally Posted by legoman

And thus we see the purpose of suffering and evil, and why God would allow and even intend for us to suffer (temporarily): suffering develops character and virtue, and makes things perfect. Similar to a process of refinement I guess.

Comments?

Suffering is just a part of life...but some suffer more than others and suffering makes no one "perfect". Millions of innocent children die horrifying deaths of starvation each and every day...go tell their mothers that god is making them perfect while they suffer. Tell it to the mothers of children who are brutally raped and murdered each and every day. Tell it to the mothers whose children are sexually abused by the clergy each and every day. Tell it to all the holocaust survivors or to the relatives of those who didn't survive or to all of the people currently living in war torn countries. It's easy for us to make up explanations for why these things happen in this life because most of us won't have to experience these things. I would venture to say that most would be pretty PO'd at their godman in the sky if they watched their children starve to death.

We live, some are poor and struggle while some are rich and have it easy, we have good days, we have bad days, some type of tragedy happens in most people lives, we all lose family members and mourn their loss, we all die...it's just life. Bad stuff happens to good people and to bad people...Good stuff happens to good people and to bad people...it's just life. While some do learn to cope and push on past their meager sufferings in this country so they can continue living...some do not and they are the ones who end up committing suicide because their suffering becomes too great for them...how perfect did god make them?

I don't understand why people feel the need to have an explanation for all that happens in this life. It's just life. Attributing these things to the godman in the sky and then saying it makes people perfect...is a seriously delusional reality and is extremely disrespectful and inhumane to those who have truly suffered for no good reason at all.

[legoman]

Originally Posted by Mr5150

We have a winner!

The atheist makes his strawman. Then he sets it on fire and thinks he has disproved God.

The Bible indicates that God is not all loving. He gets angry, jealous and has been known to smite a person or two.

meerkat, Mr5150, IMHO I don't think this is the right approach, because I do believe God is ultimately all-loving.

Psalm 145:9,17 tell us that God is loving in all His ways and has compassion on all He has made. John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2 tells us God sacrificed His son for all people. That is the ultimate gesture of love, which was done for all. I realize there are the verses that say God hates workers of iniquity, etc., but I believe that 'hate' does not discount His love for all - because He sacrificed His son for all, while they were still sinners. Of course the Calvinist will disagree...

Also just because He gets angry does not mean He is not loving... I get angry at my kids, but I still love them...

[legoman]

Originally Posted by ChristyGrl

Suffering is just a part of life...but some suffer more than others and suffering makes no one "perfect". Millions of innocent children die horrifying deaths of starvation each and every day...go tell their mothers that god is making them perfect while they suffer. Tell it to the mothers of children who are brutally raped and murdered each and every day. Tell it to the mothers whose children are sexually abused by the clergy each and every day. Tell it to all the holocaust survivors or to the relatives of those who didn't survive or to all of the people currently living in war torn countries. It's easy for us to make up explanations for why these things happen in this life because most of us won't have to experience these things. I would venture to say that most would be pretty PO'd at their godman in the sky if they watched their children starve to death.

We live, some are poor and struggle while some are rich and have it easy, we have good days, we have bad days, some type of tragedy happens in most people lives, we all lose family members and mourn their loss, we all die...it's just life. Bad stuff happens to good people and to bad people...Good stuff happens to good people and to bad people...it's just life. While some do learn to cope and push on past their meager sufferings in this country so they can continue living...some do not and they are the ones who end up committing suicide because their suffering becomes too great for them...how perfect did god make them?

I don't understand why people feel the need to have an explanation for all that happens in this life. It's just life. Attributing these things to the godman in the sky and then saying it makes people perfect...is a seriously delusional reality and is extremely disrespectful and inhumane to those who have truly suffered for no good reason at all.

The perfection may not be realized fully in this life, but at least we can say it happened for a reason. Perhaps it would give some hope. It does for me.

(Notice: because of suffering, I have hope <- another positive virtue).

[ChristyGrl]

Originally Posted by legoman

The perfection may not be realized fully in this life, but at least we can say it happened for a reason. Perhaps it would give some hope. It does for me.

(Notice: because of suffering, I have hope <- another positive virtue).

I'm glad suffering gives you hope....I personally think that is a seriously twisted outlook on life Lego and I am completely certain that any mother who watches her child die a horrific death of starvation would feel anything but hopeful. What reason could god possibly have for doing that? What possible purpose could there be for killing millions of children in such a horrific manner? Seriously guys...logic and reason are just flying out the window with these inane comments.