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Old 12-11-2011, 11:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tilli View Post
There is only one way. You must become the upstairs neighbor.

If that is not an option, the other thing is to just get used to it. Now, I know, don't rip my head off, you shouldn't have to, blah blah blah. This isn't about what's right or not, it's about what keeps you from going insane. When you hear someone drop something - don't assume they are doing it to irritate you. I see this accusation leveled in this forum all the time. It was probably an ACCIDENT. Who drops stuff on purpose? I'd love to never drop something ever again, but these things happen. Whenever I accidentally drop the TV remote control, it sounds like I dropped a bowling ball, not a little piece of plastic. The structure just really magnifies these sorts of sounds. Have you ever gone to confront someone over the bass in their stereo but when they opened the door the volume was not excessive at all? Low frequencies are transmitted through the building's structure even when the volume is not too loud.

When you hear "stomping", you should consider that some people are heavy walkers. You don't get to dictate their gait, they are allowed to move freely within their own space, even if you can hear every move they make. Sometimes they have medical issues which cause them to move with an unusual gait. There is absolutely nothing you can do to control that, but it is a lot less irritating when you don't interpret it at something they are doing to annoy you, so stop thinking of it as "stomping" - they are "walking". When you hear cabinet doors slam, maybe the door got away from them and the hardware is crappy. This happens to me a lot, I never mean to bang the cabinet door but sometimes it happens anyway, and its not like they use that fancy silent hardware. I've had neighbors who always slammed the front door, it was soooo irritating. Turns out that they had to slam the door to get it to close because the wooden frames swell a lot during the rainy season. But when they had the staff adjust the door to compensate, once the dry season came there was a big gap so they had them put it back the old way and just dealt with it during the summer. It had nothing to do with me, and once I learned why they were slamming the door I hardly even heard it anymore because I stopped taking it personally. You see the theme? The only way to block out the noise is to wear industrial earplugs, but your ears get sore after awhile and they still can't block out all sounds like those deep frequencies because you can hear those in your bones. In the future, don't live underneath other people, and in the meantime adjust your own attitude to get through this lease and move on.

Regarding the link to apartment soundproofing:

Very few landlords are going to allow you to make structural changes to a unit like decoupling or creating structural breaks within the wall, adding sound absorption material inside a wall, adding extra layers of sheetrock, etc. There are no ways to do this that will not break most leases.
While I appreciate you taking the time to reply, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you that I should simply accept their inconsiderate behavior. I pay a lot of money to live here (more than most people pay on their mortgages), and don't agree that I should have to "put up with it", or "deal with it". It is my first apartment living experience (and will certainly be my last once my lease is up in less than two years), so admittedly I was unaware prior to renting how living in apartments can be true hell. There is a big difference between walking and stomping, and what they are doing is stomping. They have also played loud music repeatedly, and even overflowed their tub which resulted in my bathroom ceiling completely collapsing. They are certainly not model tenants.

As always, any other suggestions are welcome (if you don't have any suggestions, please don't reply).
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Old 12-11-2011, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Buckeye State
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i totally feel your pain, OP.




moving isnt an option sometimes. the thing that would help alot is if the landlord puts down some thick carpet upstairs. and maybe some noise proof material under their kitchen floor?



other than that, they need to blow insulation in the floor/ceiling.


i hope everything gets better because having a different tenant move in upstairs from u after the last people leave says volumes about how people walk when/if the noise is less as of now.
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Old 12-12-2011, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Tampa, FL
2,638 posts, read 6,106,262 times
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Quote:
It is my first apartment living experience (and will certainly be my last once my lease is up in less than two years), so admittedly I was unaware prior to renting how living in apartments can be true hell.
Sorry it hasn't worked out for you so well. I have been living in apartments for a long time, I have lived in various complexes all over town. I don't consider apartment living hell at all - there are lots of good reasons to live in apartments although they are certainly not for everyone. I've been in your situation, and I'm speaking from experience. A two year lease is pretty unusual by the way, you might want to check to see if that is even enforceable in your state. In my state I think leases can be a max of 15 months. Even if it is enforceable and your LL has no upstairs unit you can transfer to right now, if you make them aware that you want to transfer they will usually allow you to do that when one becomes available. So make sure they know that you are interested as that is definitely your best bet. You might have to pay a new security deposit on the new unit and have your old unit's deposit returned after move-out inspection, but when I have transferred within a complex they have just transferred the deposit to the new unit.

Quote:
While I appreciate you taking the time to reply, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you that I should simply accept their inconsiderate behavior. I pay a lot of money to live here (more than most people pay on their mortgages), and don't agree that I should have to "put up with it", or "deal with it".
You can disagree, but that does not change reality. You can't dictate how other people walk, and they also pay rent and have a right to their own space. Everywhere I have lived, it costs extra to have the top floor unit for this very reason - hardly anyone wants to hear other people walking over their heads. Walking is not inconsiderate, and some people walk heavily. That's just how it is. If you confront them over it, it will usually backfire as people don't appreciate being told how to walk by an unreasonable downstairs neighbor. Unless their lease specifies a certain amount of throw rug coverage (this is a common clause in places like NYC but otherwise fairly rare), the LL can't force them to add more. If the sound of people "stomping" overhead really annoys you as it apparently does, the answer is to not live underneath other people. You can't control them. You CAN control yourself and how you choose to interpret the sounds you hear has a big effect on your own state of mind. I found that if I pretended that the sounds from above were made by my own grandmother instead of an irritating neighbor, they became a lot less irritating. Because a lot of this issue is psychological, we tend to think we are being targeted by noise, we take it personally, when in reality this is rarely the case.

The only other option I can think of that wouldn't requre you to get approval for structural changes is white noise. You can get white noise generators and they will drown out most other sounds - but again, they can't really do anything about those deep tones that travel through the structure. If you could locate a pink or better, red (sometimes called Brown) noise generator, that would be better as they are better at cancelling low frequencies. If you have a good set of computer speakers with a subwoofer you can just download one instead of looking for a physical unit, but without a subwoofer it will not be able to produce the deep frequencies.

Quote:
There is a big difference between walking and stomping, and what they are doing is stomping.
The apartment we have now is an open floor plan and there is a spot in the middle of the floor right in the traffic pattern where every step you take booms like a drum, even when you are tiptoeing around in your socks. The neighbors probably think we are stompers, but it really is the structure, not us. I avoid this spot in the floor as much as possible but sometimes I have to walk there. If I sit on the floor I can feel a little bounce and thump with every step my husband takes - and he is not a heavy walker. I can feel a big loud thump just from our (small!) cat jumping off the sofa, and this makes me wonder how much of the dropping objects thing that people complain about are really small pets jumping off furniture onto the floor.

Quote:
They have also played loud music repeatedly, and even overflowed their tub which resulted in my bathroom ceiling completely collapsing.
Now these are legitimate complaints. Was the damage from the overflow repaired? The tenants are responsible for any damage to your belongings due to their negligence. Loud music is only a violation if it occurs outside of quiet hours and/or exceeds decimel limits in a local ordinance. If they are playing a loud stereo after your complexes quiet hours (usually they start at 9 or 10pm), then call the cops on them. If you can get a few police reports documenting disturbances you can pass those on to the landlord - enough of those and the landlord will likely evict or not renew them. But the cops won't do anything about it unless it is loud enough for them to hear it outside the door and identify which unit it is coming from. I know from experience that is actually quite difficult - I can frequently hear the bass line from my neighbor's stereo quite clearly from within my unit, but can't hear a thing outside their front door, not even enough to be really sure which unit it is coming from. Unlike some previous obnoxious neighbors, these always turn it off at night, so I don't complain. But really - choose your battles. You can not control how other people walk, so concentrate on your legitimate gripes if you complain to management, or they will write you off as just another person who was not cut out for apartment living.

Quote:
They are certainly not model tenants.
Hey, don't get me wrong - I'm not claiming that they are model tenants, I don't live there. I am sure you are right that they are obnoxious. What I am doing is pointing out where your irritation is leading you to unreasonable expectations, like the one where you can exert any control over the way other people walk. I am just making suggestions for how you can adjust your own outlook to better tolerate the situation as you look for a better solution, because this is what worked for me in a similar situation. Best of luck.
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:23 AM
 
5,539 posts, read 1,041,728 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tilli View Post
Sorry it hasn't worked out for you so well. I have been living in apartments for a long time, I have lived in various complexes all over town. I don't consider apartment living hell at all - there are lots of good reasons to live in apartments although they are certainly not for everyone. I've been in your situation, and I'm speaking from experience. A two year lease is pretty unusual by the way, you might want to check to see if that is even enforceable in your state. In my state I think leases can be a max of 15 months. Even if it is enforceable and your LL has no upstairs unit you can transfer to right now, if you make them aware that you want to transfer they will usually allow you to do that when one becomes available. So make sure they know that you are interested as that is definitely your best bet. You might have to pay a new security deposit on the new unit and have your old unit's deposit returned after move-out inspection, but when I have transferred within a complex they have just transferred the deposit to the new unit.
I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. Apartment living certainly is not for everyone, especially when you have inconsiderate neighbors living above and around you, and even more so when you're trying to be considerate towards them.

To answer your questions: I live in NYC, and there are one and two year leases which is not uncommon for here. I am lucky enough to live in a rent stabilized apartment - even though I pay a fortune for my apartment each month, if I were living in a deregulated apartment, I would be paying the market rent each month, which is much more expensive. Additionally, I already mentioned to the property management office that I would like to be notified when a top floor apartment becomes available.

Quote:
The only other option I can think of that wouldn't require you to get approval for structural changes is white noise. You can get white noise generators and they will drown out most other sounds - but again, they can't really do anything about those deep tones that travel through the structure. If you could locate a pink or better, red (sometimes called Brown) noise generator, that would be better as they are better at canceling low frequencies. If you have a good set of computer speakers with a subwoofer you can just download one instead of looking for a physical unit, but without a subwoofer it will not be able to produce the deep frequencies.
This is great advice! I have the White Noise application on my Mac. I have been trying different sounds on this application, and this application has the pink and brown white noises that you mention. When you say "pink or better", what is "better" than pink? I only ask because I am not well-versed in which white noise sounds are most effective for blocking out deep stomping noises coming from the upstairs neighbor. If you could take a look at the application and let me know which ones are best suited for blocking out these specific stomping noises, I would greatly appreciate it!

As listed on their website, the sounds included in the White Noise application are:

Quote:
INCLUDES 40 AMBIENT SOUNDS AND PICTURES:
Air, Airplane, Amazon, Beach, Blue Noise, Boat, Brown Noise, Car Rain, Cars, Cat Purring, Chimes, City, Clock, Clothes Dryer, Crickets, Crowd, Extreme Rain, Fan, Fireplace, Frogs, Hair Dryer, Heavy Rain, Heartbeat, Light Rain, Ocean, Pink Noise, Rain Storm, Shower, Sprinkler, Stream, Tibetan Singing Bowl, Thunder, Train, Vacuum, Violet Noise, Washer, Water, Water Drip, White Noise, Wind
Quote:
Now these are legitimate complaints. Was the damage from the overflow repaired? The tenants are responsible for any damage to your belongings due to their negligence. Loud music is only a violation if it occurs outside of quiet hours and/or exceeds decibel limits in a local ordinance. If they are playing a loud stereo after your complexes quiet hours (usually they start at 9 or 10pm), then call the cops on them. If you can get a few police reports documenting disturbances you can pass those on to the landlord - enough of those and the landlord will likely evict or not renew them. But the cops won't do anything about it unless it is loud enough for them to hear it outside the door and identify which unit it is coming from. I know from experience that is actually quite difficult - I can frequently hear the bass line from my neighbor's stereo quite clearly from within my unit, but can't hear a thing outside their front door, not even enough to be really sure which unit it is coming from. Unlike some previous obnoxious neighbors, these always turn it off at night, so I don't complain. But really - choose your battles. You can not control how other people walk, so concentrate on your legitimate gripes if you complain to management, or they will write you off as just another person who was not cut out for apartment living.
In regards to the carpet, even though I live in NYC and the lease specifically states that there must be 80% carpet if you live above the first floor, my upstairs neighbor does not have carpet on his floor, essentially violating the lease. I have notified property management about this in a formal complaint letter I sent to them, but they ignore it.

Again, good advice. The tenant upstairs is also terrible in that he's always home and ALMOST NEVER leaves his apartment (I have a sporadic schedule which is how I know this), and I also believe he's unemployed. He frequently gets drunk and overflows his tub. He also has some seriously weird issues in that every time I use the bathroom and flush the toilet (or take a shower), he will hear me doing so and RUN into his bathroom to flush his toilet right after. He also runs into his bathroom about every 15 minutes to flush his toilet. It's seriously the most bizarre behavior.

My upstairs neighbor also stole one of my FedEx packages (I had multiple packages being delivered to me). The FedEx delivery man gave one of the packages to him ("him" being my upstairs neighbor) and he accepted it. I ran after him and asked him what the hell he was doing, and he mumbled he thought the package was for his sister when it clearly had my name written on it. I am glad I was there at the time of delivery to intercept the stolen package from him.

The collapsed ceiling caused extensive damage to my apartment. Luckily, I have a great superintendent who was able to completely repair and replace the ceiling. However, it took him three weeks to do, so I had to take a shower in another apartment in another building down the street for three weeks, which was not fun at all. I seriously don't know how my upstairs neighbor is allowed to stay here even after all of these issues (that's what's most infuriating to me, even after filing two formal complaints with the property management office).

I have documented several instances of calling NYC 311 (non-emergency issues) to report the loud music, but unfortunately, the system is flawed in that the police have up to eight hours to respond so by the time they arrive, the music has stopped. This is the problem I have with my next door neighbor too. Luckily, one day recently, she finally got caught playing her loud music and I haven't heard it since.

Quote:
Hey, don't get me wrong - I'm not claiming that they are model tenants, I don't live there. I am sure you are right that they are obnoxious. What I am doing is pointing out where your irritation is leading you to unreasonable expectations, like the one where you can exert any control over the way other people walk. I am just making suggestions for how you can adjust your own outlook to better tolerate the situation as you look for a better solution, because this is what worked for me in a similar situation. Best of luck.
Once again, thank you for taking the time to reply and provide me with useful advice. You have provided me with a new outlook. If you could reply to my notes above, including the white noise application, I would appreciate it!

Last edited by Photography; 12-12-2011 at 11:00 AM..
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Old 12-12-2011, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Tampa, FL
2,638 posts, read 6,106,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Photography View Post
I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. Apartment living certainly is not for everyone, especially when you have inconsiderate neighbors living above and around you, and even more so when you're trying to be considerate towards them.

To answer your questions: I live in NYC, and there are one and two year leases which is not uncommon for here. I am lucky enough to live in a rent stabilized apartment - even though I pay a fortune for my apartment each month, if I were living in a deregulated apartment, I would be paying the market rent each month, which is much more expensive. Additionally, I already mentioned to the property management office that I would like to be notified when a top floor apartment becomes available.
Great! Hopefully you won't have to wait too long.

Quote:
This is great advice! I have the White Noise application on my Mac. I have been trying different sounds on this application, and this application has the pink and brown white noises that you mention. When you say "pink or better", what is "better" than pink?
I think I said something like "pink, or better, red (also called Brown)" noise. Sorry if that was confusing, I should have taken more care with my wording. What I was trying to say is that red(Brown) noise is better at cancelling low frequencies than pink noise which is more for mid-range, while the well known white noise is for higher frequencies. For the best results you need noise that cooresponds to the intruding frequencies, and equipment that can properly reproduce those frequencies. I think you can also get some programs that can do all types at once for general noise. For instance something like a rainforest with waterfall - you'd get the deep and mid-range from the waterfall and can have a white noise sound for spray, add a smattering of crickets or chirping birds or something, voila! But really the most effective noise is not patterned like that, it is more like a wall of indistinct sound, like the wind rushing by. The repeating loop type can drive you just as crazy at the sounds you are trying to blot out.

Quote:
In regards to the carpet, even though I live in NYC and the lease specifically states that there must be 80% carpet if you live above the first floor, my upstairs neighbor does not have carpet on his floor, essentially violating the lease. I have notified property management about this in a formal complaint letter I sent to them, but they ignore it.
OK, then this is in fact one of those rare situations where you do have some recourse and you should continue to submit formal complaints. Keep a journal that describes the sounds you were hearing, what time it was, etc so that your letters can be very specific. You want your letter to be super professional, to the point, no side issues mentioned. Your issue is not with the "stomping" (as that makes it very personal, about someone's unique gait), your issue is with the lack of required carpeting which is resulting in excessive footfall noise. You should probably consult a local attorney with landlord/tenant experience. You may be to sue the landlord for failing to enforce the carpeting rule. Of course, somewhere along the line you should also consider how much trouble and drama you are willing to invite into your life for the sake of being right. This will not only anger the neighbor as you are basically trying to get them evicted (and this may result in retaliation) but also the landlord as you are not getting along with another tenant and making waves. Sometimes it is just a lot easier to let the small things slide and only fight when it is really necessary. If you really like this building and location the very best thing to do really is just ignore it until you can move into a different unit. Sometimes who is right is not as important as taking the best action to create the final result that you want.

Quote:
Again, good advice. The tenant upstairs is also terrible in that he's always home and ALMOST NEVER leaves his apartment (I have a sporadic schedule which is how I know this), and I also believe he's unemployed. He frequently gets drunk and overflows his tub. He also has some seriously weird issues in that every time I use the bathroom and flush the toilet (or take a shower), he will hear me doing so and RUN into his bathroom to flush his toilet right after. He also runs into his bathroom about every 15 minutes to flush his toilet. It's seriously the most bizarre behavior.
Well, people are allowed to stay home all the time. He may be unemployed or may have a work-from-home type arrangement, who knows. The thing with the bathroom flushing reminds me of a friend with OCD. Sounds like maybe he has some kind of compulsion regarding the toilet and maybe the tub too. I wouldn't confront such a person directly - most people like this are harmless but some of them are quite loony.

Quote:
My upstairs neighbor also stole one of my FedEx packages (I had multiple packages being delivered to me). The FedEx delivery man gave one of the packages to him ("him" being my upstairs neighbor) and he accepted it. I ran after him and asked him what the hell he was doing, and he mumbled he thought the package was for his sister when it clearly had my name written on it. I am glad I was there at the time of delivery to intercept the stolen package from him.
It is a common practice for delivery services to deliver to a neighbor if you are not around, but I really wish they would not do that in apartment complexes. However, once he realized it was intended for someone else he might have brought it by for you (and yes, maybe not). I feel better if I don't assume that everyone is trying to rip me off, ya know?

Quote:
The collapsed ceiling caused extensive damage to my apartment. Luckily, I have a great superintendent who was able to completely repair and replace the ceiling. However, it took him three weeks to do, so I had to take a shower in another apartment in another building down the street for three weeks, which was not fun at all.
Ugh. I sure hope that they gave you a partial rent credit for that period of time, you shouldn't have to pay the full amount when your unit is unlivable.

Quote:
I seriously don't know how my upstairs neighbor is allowed to stay here even after all of these issues (that's what's most infuriating to me, even after filing two formal complaints with the property management office).
Getting rid of a problem tenant is like pulling teeth, and NYC has a reputation for being very protective of tenants, blame the slum lords I suppose. The landlord really needs tons of documentation to get rid of someone, so try to just remain as calm as possible and provide this documentation every time there is an incident. Also - keep your eyes on the prize. The objective is not to evict the neighbor, the objective is to have peace in your own space. So don't report the little stuff, only the major disruptions.

Quote:
I have documented several instances of calling NYC 311 (non-emergency issues) to report the loud music, but unfortunately, the system is flawed in that the police have up to eight hours to respond so by the time they arrive, the music has stopped. This is the problem I have with my next door neighbor too. Luckily, one day recently, she finally got caught playing her loud music and I haven't heard it since.
Yes, cops don't really have a lot of time to devote to noise complaints, but they are still your best bet long term to provide documentation (from a neutral third party) to support what you are saying.

Quote:
Once again, thank you for taking the time to reply and provide me with useful advice. You have provided me with a new outlook.
I am glad that you found it useful, I hope that you can work out some solution that works for you.

Last edited by tilli; 12-12-2011 at 12:41 PM.. Reason: typos
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Old 12-12-2011, 03:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Photography View Post
[url="http://www.city-data.com/forum/renting/1255941-loud-upstairs-neighbor-landlord-unwilling-resolve.html"] I wear earplugs at night, and can still hear his sorry fat ass.
Danger. You could be risky your life doing this. Might miss a fire alarm or intruder.
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Old 12-12-2011, 04:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sas0814 View Post
Danger. You could be risky your life doing this. Might miss a fire alarm or intruder.
I can hear my alarm clock in the morning wearing earplugs, so I'm certain I'd be able to hear a fire alarm, which is significantly louder. It's funny though, I completely slept through my bathroom ceiling collapsing (the bathroom is at the other end of the apartment).
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Old 12-13-2011, 12:04 AM
 
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Opps I meant to saying risking your life. Sorry.
However, it seems like you're okay with the plugs which is a good thing.
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Old 12-13-2011, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX
14,448 posts, read 20,882,661 times
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Originally Posted by Photography View Post
Thank you once again for your help! I have taken a look at the links you provided and will certainly keep these in mind.

Any other suggestions (no unwanted/unnecessary "impossible" comments needed - it's obviously not impossible) are welcome.
Speaking as an architect I can say that there really is no way to stop the sound transmission cheaply, which is what you asked for. There are things that can be done to reduce it, but they involve significant modifications to the structure, including installing a different kind of flooring in the apartment above. The apartment soundproofing website provided covers most of what can be done. There are no easy and cheap solutions. Part of the noise is structural borne sound, so you need to try and decouple all sound paths between the floor and your ceiling below. Installing a suspended ceiling supported by hangers that resist sound transmission or a completely separate structural support system for the ceiling are a couple of methods. Adding mass to the floor above and sound damping materials such as special pads below a new floor surface can help as well.

One of the cheapest options may be to sue your landlord demanding that they comply with the 60% carpet requirement for the apartment above you.

Last edited by CptnRn; 12-13-2011 at 12:04 PM..
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:26 PM
 
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I once lived in a ground floor apartment below a couple who stomped as they walked around the apartment. The thing was the floors were carpeted. Even with carpet on the floor the sound transfer was horrible. I tried everything including various forms of white noise and even brought a $200 sound machine. I found that none of it really worked for me to drown out the impact noises. What I did notice is that in the summer when my 12000 btu airconditioner was on high, it drowned out the impact noises completely. So what I did was make an audio cd recording of my 12000 btu air conditioner 60 minutes using a handheld recorder/mp3 player that I have. I have a very powerful speaker and I played that on repeat using my stereo system. For me I find that it drowns out even the impact noises. I don't know that this would work for you though but I was at my wits end and it worked for me until I was able to be transferred to an upstairs apartment. That was a few years ago. In fact I still pull out the cd and use it when I need it. (Listening to it right now..lol ) I even keep it on low as I sleep.
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