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After 19 years of renting out a place I hope I never have to be a landlord again. We finally sold the house at a loss just to end the torture.
In my experience the property managers we hired were as bad as the tenants. I know there are good ones but we had more than our share of bad ones. The only two good ones bought a home so they wanted to be homeowners.
First problem I see is YOU did not do the background check. I would never do that for a Landlord.
You need to vet your potential tenants, no one else.
^^^^ this
I cannot imagine a Realtor who would volunteer to do a background check for a landlord/client. I never asked my Realtor but I know her answer would be a flat NO! You decide!
OP, please re-read your original post. You already know all the mistakes you made. You don't need my reply to understand how you messed up.
Just don't rent houses in the future. Problem solved -- at least in the future.
We rented our home twice and both times were a bad experience. First time a single guy (very qualifying) rented from us. He ended up breaking the lease 6 months in because he felt it was a "boring" area. He tried to say our plumbing was backing up (it was a brand new plumbing btw) and told us it was a health hazard. I later saw on his FB that he said he didn't like the area and wanted a more hip area geared towards singles. Either way, he left and lost his deposit.
Then we rented to our "nightmare" tenants! Both times we used our agent (real estate agent) that we had when we bought the house. Yes, I realize this is mistake #1.
There were a few people that were interested in the house. But this couple and their horrible teenage boys offered us 400 dollars more a month just to "out do" the other people. The woman was desperate to keep her kids in the same school. Their last place they had to leave because the guy was selling it. I know, offering more than the asking price is a HUGE RED FLAG I have since learned.
We trusted our agent to do the background work on them and she said they panned out. Now, I have never got a straight answer from her as to how she did the background check but I am guessing it was only talking to the former landlord and a simple credit check. By the way, former landlords can lie because they just want people OUT!
Before you point out all the mistakes we made, let me tell you, I have learned from these people. We also lived in another country so we relied on our neighbors (one of them is a close friend) to tell us things. Before they even moved in, one of the teenagers had a loud party in our home. Yes, we should have evicted them then and that was my gut feeling. All my neighbors told me about it but none called the cops. There was a huge fight out in the street, people screaming, cars tearing up and down the road. The fight was between a guy and a girl and the girl was screaming. Most my neighbors thought it was adults but when we confronted them, they said their older son (16 at the time) had a party there and how sorry they were blah blah blah.
From that point on, it was a series of events that we now know were bigger problems. Neighbors said a roommate was living there. I eventually met him during the move out walk through... there was a dog.. confirmed by my pool guy.... and the hair on the bottom of our dining chairs.
The roommate and dog were at the beginning. My agent sent them an email asking what was going on and they said they had a friend visiting with a dog for two weeks. LIES. We told them no pets on the premises per rental contract. My neighbors confirmed there was a guy living here the whole time. Sigh. He was sleeping on the couch. Due to the body dents in the couch and the tarp they put up on the skylight near the couch.
They also had their handyman (the roommate) fix things that were broken but nothing was ever fixed. They deducted it from the rent. I know.. we got scammed.
They moved out a month early because they found a place early. We let them leave a month early. They were late on the rent twice but we never charged a late fee. Stupid. I know.
Older boy was selling drugs (younger one was smoking them) the whole time but I couldn't get proof of course. We later found a PLETHORA of drug paraphernalia in the older boys room hidden in a secret area in the closet. We got the police to come collect it. Cops said it was all marijuana. I said ok but don't you have to be 21 years old to smoke it?
The day before they moved out, the older son (18 at this point) crashed their car into 3 of his friends car. He drove home on 3 wheels at 2am. Scraped up the driving way. I have a pic of the car sitting thanks to a neighbor. He told his dad he had had a couple of beers.
The husband wasn't interested in doing a walk through with us and our agent but when we saw the condition of what was an essentially NEW house, we were shocked. The only thing I can tell you is it was clearly a party house as it was known the whole time in the neighborhood. Not counting the walls looked like cork board pin cushions. How do you do THAT many holes? The carpets were destroyed with red spots that look like rust. They put in curtains all over the house even though we had shades. They drilled a hole from the inside of the house to the outside so they could have TV outside. Installed ethernet internet even though we had perfectly good wireless cable internet. They installed a keypad on the garage (he said he did this so that people could come and go) all without our permission. There was even a gimble to a light missing and the light was hanging out loose. I asked him where was the fixture and he said he had no idea. WTF?
I found cigarettes everywhere, bottle caps, pot in the bushes. Our outdoor furniture was totally trashed. Wine stains, cigarette burns. The patio was stained solid with spills. Scratches on the fridge, stovetop and the dishwasher is bent at the bottom. It leaked at one point and warped the wood around it. Also, it looked like they washed car parts inside the dishwasher. I was sure I would have to replace it but I finally cleaned it and it took me 3 weeks of a toothbrush, vinegar and baking soda. Floor boards were warped in front of the fridge due to something leaking. Three out of 4 screen doors had rips in them. I could go on and on but you get the picture.... I had a cleaning crew come in and worked 8 hours. It looked like they barely did anything.
Nothing was cleaned. Light switches were so disgusting I couldn't even touch them. Dining room light has broken pieces, bald spots on the lawn (probably dog) and we had to drain the pool because they never filled the pool so the filter never worked properly. It was dark green at one point. The kitchen sink is so scratched, it looks like its 30 years old. It was "hard living" in a house, filthy and alot more than your average wear and tear.
We had been communicating via email those two years. They never left a forwarding address. We now know why. They are being sued by someone for over a million dollars because this person was scammed by them. The husband is a financial advisor and built a company along with one other guy. Hired this person and just took him to the cleaners.
So we sent it via email and CC'd the wife within the 21 day period of the damages. They owe us several thousand above their deposit. He then went radio silent and out of nowhere, served us papers. They claim they never received the itemized list. Hmmm funny that was the only email he never responded to in TWO YEARS! I even have an email from the guy telling me he was sorry for the "slight alterations" to the house and that fact that its probably all due to the "X factor" of kids.
So, now we go to court next month. I know how it goes, it always falls in favor of the tenant and we are probably screwed because the judge will side with them.
We have plenty of pictures of the damage. The thing is, he isn't contesting any damage.. he couldn't possibly! Just that he never got the list. We had to use 1000 of their deposit at the end because they were having trouble paying the rent yet he is asking for the ENTIRE deposit back.
Yes, I know that if we rent again, I will use a real property manager even though they are expensive but now is now...
In short.. are we screwed? Also, any advice from veteran LL's would be great.
Thanks in advance.
PS. Wanted to add after they served us, we served them back for the amount THEY owe us above the deposit. That's also how we got their new address which I have been happy to hand out to the process servers coming to our door looking for them!!
I wish I could of given you advice before you went through the torture. All I can say is you know what you did wrong. I was once like you. Nice. And gullible. It took time and money to stop being gullible. I'm still nice until the time comes to not be so nice.
Here is what I would do
Since you can prove the fact that you communicated with them through email the judge may buy the method of communication.
I would take the copy of the itemized list of damages you sent as evidence. Bring all your pictures, receipts etc. Be absolutely CLEAR AND PRECISE in the damage that was done by the tenant. Don't go into dramatics or long lengthy story. Keep everything to the point. You caused damage to xyz from day abc. Btw small claims is nothing like Judge Judy. You may go through a mediator before seeing a judge. If you cannot agree o something with the mediator you will go see the judge. You should/will/may not get a ruling right there and there. The judge may want to see the evidence.
The judge may say you owe the deposit by law. The unfortunate part is that you can't prove they got it and the burden is most likely on you.
I probably didn't have to tell you
FROM THIS POINT FORWARD ANY CORRESPONDENCE WITH ANY TENANT PAST PRESENT OR FUTURE SHOULD BE SENT SIGNATURE REQUIRED.
That is THE way and the ONLY way you send any important correspondence like pay/quit, raise in rent, notice of cancellation, and return of deposit.
Btw as the defendant in a small claims case you have the right to appeal. I would appeal any ruling that is not favorable to you. And if you do lose after exhausting ALL the appeal or court process you can tell the judge that you need to set up a payment plan. The court will allow that. Even if he wins I would drag it out as much as you can.
I always send itemized deposit deductions or refunds via certified mail and pay by check from my business checking account using my PO BOX, never my home address. Not sure how many of the other posters are landlords. I'm a landlord of four years and have multiple rentals in Seattle. I've been through this kind of crap before. Have yet to be served with papers but my leases and property condition reports are pretty good. I've had ONE professional tenant who slipped through the cracks and the red flags were there though I ignored them to avoid having more vacancy. I now do NOT under any circumstances rent to:
-People staying with friends, family or motels. Good tenants don't live with friends and family or motels. NINE out of 10 who do and contact me have all kinds of issues in their life, criminal, civil, financial.
-Tenants who have unpaid utility bills. ALWAYS a bad sign.
-Anyone with a credit score below 600. That's a C credit score, and frankly if you can't hack that you're not exactly the epitome of a good tenant. EVERY landlord I've talked to has had problems with tenants who had sub 600 credit scores. I have too. Not just with some, but ALL of them. I know guys who manage huge apartment complexes. EVERY SINGLE TENANT with a sub 600 score had constant issues.
-Tenants who do not agree that I come to where they live now to see how they've cared for the place.
-All tenants are kept on a monthly lease NO exceptions. Won't get a dime taking them to court for breaking a lease, but you have assets so you are stuck with them if they suck and you are on a 12 month lease. This one thing alone enabled me to simply give 20 days notice to get the idiots out of my rental last summer.
-Anyone too eager, too friendly or too dumb to read the listing requirements despite them being listed at the TOP AND BOTTOM and yet still asks me what the rent or terms are is too dumb to rent. I've noticed a pattern in reading comprehension, income and problem tenants. Lack of reading comprehension usually means uneducated low income job, which usually means all kind of bad decisions. Every single person I've let slide on this has turned out to be beyond a problem they are so dumb. I've had these morons literally text me after a water leak didn't stop on it's own after 3 days. Yeah, they thought it would magically fix itself. You have to realize most renters rent because they are low income and have bad credit thus are unable to afford to buy. These are usually not Harvard educated scientists...
I could go on and on. I had some real goofballs in one of my units last summer. They tried to threaten all kinds of crap "under the law". Their threats and emails were so dumb, they literally admitted fault, repeatedly changed their story, and incriminated themselves more, made all kinds of extortion demands, and admitted to committing all kinds of felonies. I told them to get bent and never heard from them again. I doubt I will, their excuses were so ridiculous a judge would have laughed them out of court.
What you have here is a professional tenant who knows the rules or thinks they do. Most landlords write a check and give in. Personally I hire attorneys to fight these uneducated morons and have them pay my legal fees per the lease when they lose. Or at least I will if any of them ever think they are clever and want to serve me.
After 19 years of renting out a place I hope I never have to be a landlord again. We finally sold the house at a loss just to end the torture.
In my experience the property managers we hired were as bad as the tenants. I know there are good ones but we had more than our share of bad ones. The only two good ones bought a home so they wanted to be homeowners.
I am sorry for your problems.
The funny thing is I only ever hear this from experienced landlords. When I post in moronville (Reddit) I get all kinds of geniuses who say that my attitude is the problem not the tenants. Mind you these are idiots who don't even own their own home let alone any rentals and haven't done it for any length of time.
Right, my 155K a year IT Engineer salary, combined with my MBA, not to mention the several hundred thousand a year I make from investments a year along with top credit and clean record are the problem, not the people who can't read a simple listing, keep an appointment, have multiple felonies, 500 credit scores, 2 evictions, and 4 pit bulls trying to rent my 500K house on a McDonalds wage.
Essentially, when you are a landlord, it's a sign of financial success and that success unless inherited is tied to your intelligence. Renters are generally renters because they are at the bottom of the intelligence totem pole and their income reflects it. Their behavior is also very blue collar. There are exceptions to every rule.
I wish I could of given you advice before you went through the torture. All I can say is you know what you did wrong. I was once like you. Nice. And gullible. It took time and money to stop being gullible. I'm still nice until the time comes to not be so nice.
Here is what I would do
Since you can prove the fact that you communicated with them through email the judge may buy the method of communication.
I would take the copy of the itemized list of damages you sent as evidence. Bring all your pictures, receipts etc. Be absolutely CLEAR AND PRECISE in the damage that was done by the tenant. Don't go into dramatics or long lengthy story. Keep everything to the point. You caused damage to xyz from day abc. Btw small claims is nothing like Judge Judy. You may go through a mediator before seeing a judge. If you cannot agree o something with the mediator you will go see the judge. You should/will/may not get a ruling right there and there. The judge may want to see the evidence.
The judge may say you owe the deposit by law. The unfortunate part is that you can't prove they got it and the burden is most likely on you.
I probably didn't have to tell you
FROM THIS POINT FORWARD ANY CORRESPONDENCE WITH ANY TENANT PAST PRESENT OR FUTURE SHOULD BE SENT SIGNATURE REQUIRED.
That is THE way and the ONLY way you send any important correspondence like pay/quit, raise in rent, notice of cancellation, and return of deposit.
Btw as the defendant in a small claims case you have the right to appeal. I would appeal any ruling that is not favorable to you. And if you do lose after exhausting ALL the appeal or court process you can tell the judge that you need to set up a payment plan. The court will allow that. Even if he wins I would drag it out as much as you can.
I always send deposit refunds via check, certified mail....
FROM THIS POINT FORWARD ANY CORRESPONDENCE WITH ANY TENANT PAST PRESENT OR FUTURE SHOULD BE SENT SIGNATURE REQUIRED.
That is THE way and the ONLY way you send any important correspondence like pay/quit, raise in rent, notice of cancellation, and return of deposit.
This is EXACTLY my policy too (USPS certified mail signature required), and I send such notices sufficiently in advance that it can be proved they were delivered in a timely manner. (Another carrier that provides tracking data and signature required could be used, such as FedEx, but I believe USPS is the least expensive.)
Also please note that in an addendum to my lease (named in the lease and requiring tenant signatures) states that email shall not considered to be legal notice unless both parties agree. I believe email is NOT a legal means of notice because it can never be proved that it was delivered on time or even delivered at all, but it does no harm to make this a provision in the lease.
Sorry, OP, but your story is all too common. I've been was an absentee landlord twice (once internationally, which was truly terrifying) and I had really good tenants. BUT I would still never do it again; haven't made any money, taxes are a mess, and am now trying to sell the house at a loss, but it will be worth it not to deal with the aggravation any more.
You might want to seek advice about your legal position from a real lawyer, not an on-line forum. The only good thing, is that his/her fee will be tax deductible.
I've never been a landlord, but a basic knowledge (d/t being a renter), which you should have done prior to becoming one (meaning a landlord), with or without a crappy management service, (or hell, even a watch of a few People's Court or Judge Judy episodes) would have told you MAIL A CERTIFIED LETTER OF DAMAGES TO LAST KNOWN ADDRESS, EVEN IF IT'S YOUR RENTAL. Jury's out on whether email counts as proper notification.
Either do some research (you have internet, obviously) or get out of the landlord business.
Sorry, OP, but your story is all too common. I've been was an absentee landlord twice (once internationally, which was truly terrifying) and I had really good tenants. BUT I would still never do it again; haven't made any money, taxes are a mess, and am now trying to sell the house at a loss, but it will be worth it not to deal with the aggravation any more.
You might want to seek advice about your legal position from a real lawyer, not an on-line forum. The only good thing, is that his/her fee will be tax deductible.
I have worked with an Irish Gentleman for ten years. I helped him buy four properties and sell 3. He had one property that was a disaster. But that was the one he kept for his personal use. One has been a dream and he continues to hold it...long term tenants who take care of the place and give him no problem. One place has worked fine...three tenants over ten years all handled by a PM with no problem. One property had a couple of gaps in rent but was otherwise OK. His own property turned into a disaster after a water leak. Got terribly complicated. Most interesting thing was the same insurance company served both of the involved tenants and the HOA. And it took four years and heavy lawyers to resolve. Never saw anything so complex.
So part of it is the luck of the draw. I do not do property management but I do control who gets a dozen or so PM contracts and some are multiple. So I do pay attention. And I do coach client who rent there own place though I take no money for it to avoid being a property manager.
But yeah it can be done. Just got to work at it. And get a PM if not local.
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