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Old 04-08-2013, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,018 posts, read 17,729,443 times
Reputation: 32304

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I was looking for what I thought was the most clever post in this thread to quote it, but I couldn't find it. The poster said something like this:

I'll bet the LATE Mr. and Mrs. Menendez of the Los Angeles area would say, if they could speak, that they regret having children.

Just in case some of you are too young to remember the case, the two Menendez brothers killed their parents when they (the brothers) were young adults. They are currently rotting in prison. It's funny, but I had forgotten all about them, despite having followed the story closely in the Los Angeles Times back then.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:39 PM
 
Location: zippidy doo dah
895 posts, read 1,330,598 times
Reputation: 1928
Quote:
Originally Posted by darstar View Post
That should apply to all the parents of ALL the kids that became mass murder kids before and or after they have grown up .Parents who do nothing about their mentally ill kids are the parents that should not have been allowed to have kids in the first place ! Having children in the first place should be a privilege not a right !! If you do not qualify you will not be allowed to have them....There are way to many unwanted kids being born and for no good reason, they should be aborted ! Until we wake up and start seeing what violence, guns, disturbed kids, unresponsive parents can do, the massacre at New Town's all around the world will continue.

Fascinating.....how does one determine prior to conception that they are carrying a mass murderer? Is there an app for that?

And qualifying for parenthood? While I think it rather absurd that the state feels it necessary to license marriage because it has a vested interest , I'd be a bit uncomfortable with just who determines qualifications necessary to procreate.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:52 PM
 
2,575 posts, read 4,688,777 times
Reputation: 6378
My son, who is 23 now, is without a doubt the best thing that ever happened to me. He never threw a tantrum as a toddler, never slammed a door or spoke to me disrespectfully as a teenager, and has turned into a very interesting young man with many talents and interests. So I for one will say no...I don't regret for a second having had him.
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Old 04-09-2013, 03:00 AM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,628 posts, read 13,886,662 times
Reputation: 2770
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzfroggez View Post
Fascinating.....how does one determine prior to conception that they are carrying a mass murderer? Is there an app for that?

And qualifying for parenthood? While I think it rather absurd that the state feels it necessary to license marriage because it has a vested interest , I'd be a bit uncomfortable with just who determines qualifications necessary to procreate.
As a rule you do not know, but when the parent ignores a serious mental disorder that's in front of then, I call that ireresponsable . Many times parents refuse to except the facts their kids maybe less than perfict, and try to hide away the child, or keep making excuses for them, until the day comes when it's too late.
Having children is a serious step in both the life of the child, the parent, and the public as well.How many times does the state have to intervene ? One of the reason we have social workers, not nearly enough it seem these days. If the parents do not do their job, who pays ? And we can also easily forget the poor neglected children who have little hope, who can't speek for themselves, that are left to rot on the steps of our overburdened court system. Yes, people all to often have children for all the wrong reasons.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:46 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,745 posts, read 4,215,210 times
Reputation: 6866
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzfroggez View Post
Fascinating.....how does one determine prior to conception that they are carrying a mass murderer? Is there an app for that?

And qualifying for parenthood? While I think it rather absurd that the state feels it necessary to license marriage because it has a vested interest , I'd be a bit uncomfortable with just who determines qualifications necessary to procreate.
We don't need no stinkin' app! History is full of examples where the government has stepped in and taken care of it.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:19 AM
 
239 posts, read 474,955 times
Reputation: 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by lenora View Post
We don't need no stinkin' app! History is full of examples where the government has stepped in and taken care of it.

not true.

Seldom does the govt step in before procreation.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,745 posts, read 4,215,210 times
Reputation: 6866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkansas Mac View Post
not true.

Seldom does the govt step in before procreation.
Are you referring to current policies? If so, reread my post. I was suggesting that we don't need an app because a quick look at history provides us with a template for the practice of eugenics.

Nazi Germany & Jews, our federal government & Native Americans, and, not to be outdone, the multiple states that sterilized their undesirables... the mentally "defective", reformatory school students, criminals.

Eugenics: Compulsory Sterilization in 50 American States

My post was definitely written tongue-in-cheek. There are several states now scrambling to settle lawsuits from childless adults who were involuntarily sterilized as children. As for the adults who were at one time sterilized for engaging in criminal behavior, well, the United States Supreme Court has ruled that is a no-no as well.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:03 AM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,628 posts, read 13,886,662 times
Reputation: 2770
Quote:
Originally Posted by lenora View Post
Are you referring to current policies? If so, reread my post. I was suggesting that we don't need an app because a quick look at history provides us with a template for the practice of eugenics.

Nazi Germany & Jews, our federal government & Native Americans, and, not to be outdone, the multiple states that sterilized their undesirables... the mentally "defective", reformatory school students, criminals.

Eugenics: Compulsory Sterilization in 50 American States

My post was definitely written tongue-in-cheek. There are several states now scrambling to settle lawsuits from childless adults who were involuntarily sterilized as children. As for the adults who were at one time sterilized for engaging in criminal behavior, well, the United States Supreme Court has ruled that is a no-no as well.
Then tell us why there is a blood test required to get a marriage license ? Why several southern states still have racial marrying laws on the books.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:33 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 67,147,825 times
Reputation: 22373
Scary discussion, this . . . limiting the number of children or screening who is allowed to have children. Besides the eugenics template that Lenora mentioned, there's China, as well . . .

Here are my thoughts. The right to procreate is a natural, universal, inalienable right.

Procreation by folks who are incapable of financially taking care of their offspring is an entirely different matter. Oh, supposedly, the way it should be is . . . you don't have offspring if you can't care for them . . . but we all know that isn't how it works for a portion of the population (worldwide - not just here in the USA!). In addition, special needs children can challenge even the most robust of household budgets.

But let's just focus on the right to procreate. When does the government have the right to step in and insist that those children are cared for properly? Well, we already have taken over as caretaker to millions of children, citizens as well as non-citizens, in this country, through aid to dependent families, food stamps, education, etc.

When my forefathers came to this country in the 1700s, there was a system in place to guarantee, at least to a defined extent, the care of children born out of wedlock . . . "bastardy bonds."

Definition here:Background - Bastardy Bonds: Securities for the Maintenance of Bastard Children (WB) - London Lives

I have never researched how wide-spread the use of bastardy bonds were in the 18th C, but here in NC, they were enforced. If the out-of-wedlock mother would not name the father of her child, her relatives were then compelled to put up the bond. That is why we had "shot gun" marriages here (where the father and brothers of the pregnant woman would force the father of the child to marry - at gun point - if necessary). That is also why it has been such a longstanding tradition in the South that no one has a baby out of wedlock, not only b/c it would shame the family, but mainly b/c it would cost the family a lot of money to put up the bastardy bonds.

Strange how the system has changed from the state requiring the family to put up money to ensure care of an out-of-wedlock child to the present system, of the state underwriting the care of all children.

If people knew it was going to mean an OUTLAY OF CASH (and it would need to be substantial!) by the father of the child or by the family members . . . instead of a gaggle of children equating to higher paychecks every month (and food stamp benefits, etc) . . . I wonder how many people would be choosing to have children who are going to be essentially wards of the state for at least 18 years?

If you don't have the money to raise children, don't be dropping babies for the rest of us to pay for. Once a "bastardy bond" is in place, then it would be incumbent upon the named father (or relatives) BY COURT ORDER to provide for child support for that baby until age 18. Deadbeat daddies get their wages garnished.

I don't understand why we have allowed the system to be perverted into the state picking up the responsibilities for irresponsible people.

Of course, there would still need to be some sort of aid for families in place . . . people can have every good intention of caring for their children responsibly and lose their jobs, be victim to an illness, etc. But seeing as how the largest majority of subsidies goes to unwed mothers (or mothers who won't file for child support from the baby's daddy) . . . this would surely affect how carelessly people procreate . . . and would offset cost (and demand responsibility on at least some level) from families who brought children into the world.

The way it is now . . . with teens looking forward to all the subsidies they will receive (from housing to monthly checks) once they start having babies. . . . there is no "dis-incentive" to NOT procreate out of wedlock.

Of course, we wouldn't call such bonds "bastardy bonds" as that would label a child . . . but I am sure the wordsmiths amongst us could come up with an appropriate designation (child welfare bonds? child benefit bonds?)

Supporting families to be strong and healthy in our community should start with parents who are willing to be personally responsible for the welfare of their offspring, rather than expecting the community to be footing the bill for raising those children.

FORGIVE ME IF I TOOK THE THREAD OFF TOPIC . . . in re: to the OP's question about having children . . . my son is the joy of my life. Having him was by far the most important one thing I have done with my life. In my 20s, I didn't think I wanted children . . . so the decision was not one lightly made. He was planned for, dreamed of and I dedicated myself to being a mother. My career was planned around being his mom and I thank God I did it that way. Motherhood taught me so much about myself, as well . . . I would be an entirely different person, I am certain, if I had not become a mother. The older I get, the more grateful I am to have a close relationship with this wonderful young man who graced our lives.

Children really are a gift . . . a surprise package . . . and we are only there in the center of their lives for a few years. Our role is to teach them to fly. I am so lucky I had the opportunity to be part of my son's life and get him started on what I hope will be a happy, productive journey of his own.

Last edited by brokensky; 04-09-2013 at 10:44 AM..
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:14 PM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,628 posts, read 13,886,662 times
Reputation: 2770
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
Scary discussion, this . . . limiting the number of children or screening who is allowed to have children. Besides the eugenics template that Lenora mentioned, there's China, as well . . .

Here are my thoughts. The right to procreate is a natural, universal, inalienable right.

Procreation by folks who are incapable of financially taking care of their offspring is an entirely different matter. Oh, supposedly, the way it should be is . . . you don't have offspring if you can't care for them . . . but we all know that isn't how it works for a portion of the population (worldwide - not just here in the USA!). In addition, special needs children can challenge even the most robust of household budgets.

But let's just focus on the right to procreate. When does the government have the right to step in and insist that those children are cared for properly? Well, we already have taken over as caretaker to millions of children, citizens as well as non-citizens, in this country, through aid to dependent families, food stamps, education, etc.

When my forefathers came to this country in the 1700s, there was a system in place to guarantee, at least to a defined extent, the care of children born out of wedlock . . . "bastardy bonds."

Definition here:Background - Bastardy Bonds: Securities for the Maintenance of Bastard Children (WB) - London Lives

I have never researched how wide-spread the use of bastardy bonds were in the 18th C, but here in NC, they were enforced. If the out-of-wedlock mother would not name the father of her child, her relatives were then compelled to put up the bond. That is why we had "shot gun" marriages here (where the father and brothers of the pregnant woman would force the father of the child to marry - at gun point - if necessary). That is also why it has been such a longstanding tradition in the South that no one has a baby out of wedlock, not only b/c it would shame the family, but mainly b/c it would cost the family a lot of money to put up the bastardy bonds.

Strange how the system has changed from the state requiring the family to put up money to ensure care of an out-of-wedlock child to the present system, of the state underwriting the care of all children.

If people knew it was going to mean an OUTLAY OF CASH (and it would need to be substantial!) by the father of the child or by the family members . . . instead of a gaggle of children equating to higher paychecks every month (and food stamp benefits, etc) . . . I wonder how many people would be choosing to have children who are going to be essentially wards of the state for at least 18 years?

If you don't have the money to raise children, don't be dropping babies for the rest of us to pay for. Once a "bastardy bond" is in place, then it would be incumbent upon the named father (or relatives) BY COURT ORDER to provide for child support for that baby until age 18. Deadbeat daddies get their wages garnished.

I don't understand why we have allowed the system to be perverted into the state picking up the responsibilities for irresponsible people.

Of course, there would still need to be some sort of aid for families in place . . . people can have every good intention of caring for their children responsibly and lose their jobs, be victim to an illness, etc. But seeing as how the largest majority of subsidies goes to unwed mothers (or mothers who won't file for child support from the baby's daddy) . . . this would surely affect how carelessly people procreate . . . and would offset cost (and demand responsibility on at least some level) from families who brought children into the world.

The way it is now . . . with teens looking forward to all the subsidies they will receive (from housing to monthly checks) once they start having babies. . . . there is no "dis-incentive" to NOT procreate out of wedlock.

Of course, we wouldn't call such bonds "bastardy bonds" as that would label a child . . . but I am sure the wordsmiths amongst us could come up with an appropriate designation (child welfare bonds? child benefit bonds?)

Supporting families to be strong and healthy in our community should start with parents who are willing to be personally responsible for the welfare of their offspring, rather than expecting the community to be footing the bill for raising those children.

FORGIVE ME IF I TOOK THE THREAD OFF TOPIC . . . in re: to the OP's question about having children . . . my son is the joy of my life. Having him was by far the most important one thing I have done with my life. In my 20s, I didn't think I wanted children . . . so the decision was not one lightly made. He was planned for, dreamed of and I dedicated myself to being a mother. My career was planned around being his mom and I thank God I did it that way. Motherhood taught me so much about myself, as well . . . I would be an entirely different person, I am certain, if I had not become a mother. The older I get, the more grateful I am to have a close relationship with this wonderful young man who graced our lives.

Children really are a gift . . . a surprise package . . . and we are only there in the center of their lives for a few years. Our role is to teach them to fly. I am so lucky I had the opportunity to be part of my son's life and get him started on what I hope will be a happy, productive journey of his own.
You talk about the 'wedlock" as a cure for all these problems, nothing could be further from the truth.I am sure you are aware of single mothers having children, or adopting them, all planed, right down to the cost factor. You may be one of them, you only mention yourself as a care giver. Thats ok, even Gay people have children that grow up well adjusted. Neglect can come from poor people as well as wealthy people cruel treatment of your offspring knows no bounds. And yes you are right, if you can't support, care, feed, provide a proper education then you should not have children, period ! The welfare mom that keeps spitting out babies thing is way overblown don't put all the blame in that direction.
We must have laws that protect the children and the public, there is no getting around that. Education will go a long way in solving the unwanted children issues across our lands.
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