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Old 09-17-2014, 12:36 PM
 
9,228 posts, read 9,297,498 times
Reputation: 28940

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly View Post
Our system gives incentive to staying married and inflicts pain when divorcing.

This leads to nasty, nasty divorces or in some cases marriages that are utterly toxic.

The whole thing is in need of serious reform, from start to finish.

In a way I thank gays for challenging traditional marriage. Eventually I expect there to be merely a contractual partnership for those who really want or need something besides a casual cohabitation relationship. Maybe at that point it can have slick severability aspects so that if things don't work out it can be more like a corporate spin off than the parasitic, ongoing debacle it now is in both cases of staying married for the wrong reasons and divorce.
I'm afraid I view it differently. In the past, the idea of marriage was a core value of society. Perhaps, the irony is/was that the major beneficiaries of marriage were not the couple involved generally. The major beneficiaries were children born to the couple, to the community, and to the state. Children virtually always benefit from a stable relationship between their parents and marriage forces a somewhat stable relationship upon them. Couples can divorce, but even when that happens there is a legal structure in place to guarantee children monetary support, a somewhat stable home, and visitation rights with the non-custodial parent. However, the concept is that when we marry and raise children, we put some of our personal needs aside for the good of our family. I know that concept well. As a father and a husband I have done it many, many times and will do it again.

In the past, women were more economically dependent on men than they are today and benefited more from a legal marriage too. Even this may still be somewhat true. The average women's earnings are not yet as great as that of the average man. Although, parity may be reached within a few decades. However, as women's earning power has increased, many women approach marriage the same way a great number of men are. They view it as an encumberance, a shackle, and something that inhibits their behavior. One way of viewing this is selfishness. Although, where children are not involved I do not see not getting married as selfish. I do see it as wrong and inappropriate where children are involved. In my narrow, perhaps Puritanical view of the world, I view all children as being entitled to a loving home where parents who live together choose to be married to one another.

Marriage has declined as one of society's core values. Where older people are involved it may not have great significance, but the message being sent to those in their twenties is a bad message. The message is that what they want is more important than what children need for a stable home. That is my fear with all this talk of avoiding marriage and living together. I am concerned we are gradually creating a world that will be harder for young children to thrive than in the past.
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:55 PM
 
Location: SoCal desert
8,093 posts, read 13,249,708 times
Reputation: 14870
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I'm afraid I view it differently. In the past, the idea of marriage was a core value of society.
I'm afraid I view it differently.
In the past, the idea of marriage was like buying a horse. Usually for much less.
You wed my daughter, I'll give you money.
She comes from a fine bloodline, she'll give you legitimate offspring.

Values, bah. Marriage was about power.
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Old 09-19-2014, 08:21 PM
 
Location: in the miseries
3,302 posts, read 3,586,191 times
Reputation: 3810
Still is.
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Old 09-20-2014, 01:20 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
7,629 posts, read 14,394,556 times
Reputation: 18712
I read these post with interest HAPPY for those of you that have found yourselves and are happy, and grieving for those of you that feel abandoned and a sense of loss at this most wonderful point in life.

I am thrilled to be every bit as in love with my darling husband as I was way more than a quarter century ago when we married, but realize that not everyone is as lucky. A few hints from those I have seen suffer thru a loss of love/divorce later in life:

IF you feel you would be happier living alone vs together, divorce need not be the ONLY answer. I have had friends/relatives that have opted to live "independent" of each other without the loss of support/benefits/finances. Not easy it appears, takes two really willing to "work" at it, but from post here in this discussion & watching dear friends/family, can be done successfully by those willing to work at it. (i.e., if allowing your spouse to keep medical/dental/life ins vs having to compensate, why bother if you have no "need" to be free to remarry?)

#2 and most importantly, is that after so many years together, many feel the need for "independence" from each other but achieved, realize that they are actually MORE miserable apart than when together. PLEASE consider and reconsider the options available to you and ensure that the "grass is TRULY greener" before moving forward. Sometimes it take the loss of someone you think difficult to live with to realize how much you focus on the negative vs the positive things they bring to your everyday life. Is marriage easy, NO! Is it work, ABSOLUTELY! Is it worth it, often the answer is YES even when we do not realize it.

I guess my point is to realize at this age, with all the "freedoms" that we feel after children are raised, jobs might be completed and life is just opening up to be "enjoyed", sometimes you have NO idea how wonderful you have it until it is too late. God Speed to anyone not as content as some of us at this point in our lives.
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Old 09-20-2014, 04:41 AM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,628 posts, read 13,909,323 times
Reputation: 2770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paka View Post
I read these post with interest HAPPY for those of you that have found yourselves and are happy, and grieving for those of you that feel abandoned and a sense of loss at this most wonderful point in life.

I am thrilled to be every bit as in love with my darling husband as I was way more than a quarter century ago when we married, but realize that not everyone is as lucky. A few hints from those I have seen suffer thru a loss of love/divorce later in life:

IF you feel you would be happier living alone vs together, divorce need not be the ONLY answer. I have had friends/relatives that have opted to live "independent" of each other without the loss of support/benefits/finances. Not easy it appears, takes two really willing to "work" at it, but from post here in this discussion & watching dear friends/family, can be done successfully by those willing to work at it. (i.e., if allowing your spouse to keep medical/dental/life ins vs having to compensate, why bother if you have no "need" to be free to remarry?)

#2 and most importantly, is that after so many years together, many feel the need for "independence" from each other but achieved, realize that they are actually MORE miserable apart than when together. PLEASE consider and reconsider the options available to you and ensure that the "grass is TRULY greener" before moving forward. Sometimes it take the loss of someone you think difficult to live with to realize how much you focus on the negative vs the positive things they bring to your everyday life. Is marriage easy, NO! Is it work, ABSOLUTELY! Is it worth it, often the answer is YES even when we do not realize it.

I guess my point is to realize at this age, with all the "freedoms" that we feel after children are raised, jobs might be completed and life is just opening up to be "enjoyed", sometimes you have NO idea how wonderful you have it until it is too late. God Speed to anyone not as content as some of us at this point in our lives.
All well and good , but just how far can you go when it comes to romance, which is the big issue. I can see an " open marriage" working which would solve the romantic areas, question is can that work for so many that feel such is against their morals? ...... The " paring " thing could be the answer , it's not a lot different than taking a mistress into the mix, or boyfriend as it may.
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Old 09-20-2014, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 19,007,999 times
Reputation: 15649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paka View Post
#2 and most importantly, is that after so many years together, many feel the need for "independence" from each other but achieved, realize that they are actually MORE miserable apart than when together. PLEASE consider and reconsider the options available to you and ensure that the "grass is TRULY greener" before moving forward. Sometimes it take the loss of someone you think difficult to live with to realize how much you focus on the negative vs the positive things they bring to your everyday life. Is marriage easy, NO! Is it work, ABSOLUTELY! Is it worth it, often the answer is YES even when we do not realize it.
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Old 09-20-2014, 08:57 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
7,629 posts, read 14,394,556 times
Reputation: 18712
Quote:
Originally Posted by darstar View Post
All well and good , but just how far can you go when it comes to romance, which is the big issue. I can see an " open marriage" working which would solve the romantic areas, question is can that work for so many that feel such is against their morals? ...... The " paring " thing could be the answer , it's not a lot different than taking a mistress into the mix, or boyfriend as it may.
Good question, but I think the people I knew that did this successfully were a little more "committed" to the complete and total "divorce" of private lives, but agreed that with pre-existing medical conditions that would preclude/cost a tremendous amt more to obtain (if possible) they just did the reverse of what most people that "live together without marriage" do and "divorced without the paperwork making it official."

I think the difference about the "open marriage" concept would be someone MARRIED wanting something on the side, where they wanted independent lives while enjoying the benefit of the friendship and fruits of their labor thru their years together when it comes to their beautiful home and "toys" (boat, lake home, etc). It was after years and years of marriage, and I think respect to each other for what they had at one time and the medical needs of the one that would have been left financially devastated by a true "divorce". They also had no children, and agreed to leave their portion of the estate to each other thru their wills, making them actually more civil and respectful of each other and needs of the other than they were when unhappy and trying to figure out how to go about calling a marriage that was not working for them quits. He was now responsible for his cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc and she did the same. She had her circle of friends, he his. I have no idea about how/if they entertained when the other was present or they worked out an agreement on "you need the house tonite or I am gone next week so you will have the house to yourself" kind of stuff. Since retired/retired, it allowed them both to keep sharing expenses, able to travel and enjoy. I am not sure a lot of sex was involved at their age to begin with...

They did not live as a married couple, or expect the other to do so, but shared a large house with separate living arrangements and shared common areas. They said nothing about "friends with privileges" concerns and I did not ask.
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Old 09-23-2014, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
36,485 posts, read 43,843,967 times
Reputation: 47263
The thing about open marriages or agreements to live independently but together in the same house is that all too often the man (usually) will find a younger woman who wants marriage so the older woman is left holding the (empty) bag. I say if the marriage isn't working for the couple to take legal steps to equitably split the assets either through deeds or divorce so one or the other is not left high and dry if a third party comes along to ruin the whole relationship.
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Old 09-23-2014, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Hell
377 posts, read 537,556 times
Reputation: 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
It would be interesting to know if your changed legal status has alleviated the problems that led you to divorce. I have sometimes thought about getting back with my ex, just to live together, but think that the essential (noncommunication) issues would remain and make me sad/unfulfilled.
I have been living with my ex for 5 years now. In our case the divorce has lessened the financial issues we had. He was a spender and I am a saver so when we were married it caused a lot of bickering. He is also very financially irresponsible. Now, if he wants to rack up credit card debt or whatever he can and it's NMFP! lol.
There are other issues they will never go away. However, while our son is a minor I just prefer to ignore them.
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Old 10-12-2015, 04:30 PM
 
12,825 posts, read 20,170,095 times
Reputation: 10910
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I'm afraid I view it differently. In the past, the idea of marriage was a core value of society. Perhaps, the irony is/was that the major beneficiaries of marriage were not the couple involved generally. The major beneficiaries were children born to the couple, to the community, and to the state. Children virtually always benefit from a stable relationship between their parents and marriage forces a somewhat stable relationship upon them. Couples can divorce, but even when that happens there is a legal structure in place to guarantee children monetary support, a somewhat stable home, and visitation rights with the non-custodial parent. However, the concept is that when we marry and raise children, we put some of our personal needs aside for the good of our family. I know that concept well. As a father and a husband I have done it many, many times and will do it again.

In the past, women were more economically dependent on men than they are today and benefited more from a legal marriage too. Even this may still be somewhat true. The average women's earnings are not yet as great as that of the average man. Although, parity may be reached within a few decades. However, as women's earning power has increased, many women approach marriage the same way a great number of men are. They view it as an encumberance, a shackle, and something that inhibits their behavior. One way of viewing this is selfishness. Although, where children are not involved I do not see not getting married as selfish. I do see it as wrong and inappropriate where children are involved. In my narrow, perhaps Puritanical view of the world, I view all children as being entitled to a loving home where parents who live together choose to be married to one another.

Marriage has declined as one of society's core values. Where older people are involved it may not have great significance, but the message being sent to those in their twenties is a bad message. The message is that what they want is more important than what children need for a stable home. That is my fear with all this talk of avoiding marriage and living together. I am concerned we are gradually creating a world that will be harder for young children to thrive than in the past.
What you wrote is completely N/A for elders and for that matter, younger folks who are DINKs or SINKs.
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