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Old 09-19-2011, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,018 posts, read 17,747,361 times
Reputation: 32309

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Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
My point is . . . it is what it is. It doesn't matter WHY a person is struggling. If he or she is struggling, then that is the reality of their lives, regardless how they got to that point. There is no need to be judgmental, period.

They may be a felon and just out of prison . . . they may be an AIDs patient and lost everything and have no insurance and no one to help support them and their medical costs . . . they may be a widow whose hubby gambled the money away and left her w/ debt at his death. Or a person may have spent his entire life on gubment welfare, living in subsidized apartments, medicaid and food stamps.

What does it matter? Poverty is poverty, regardless how you got there.
It matters to me because it has a lot to do with how we may respond, both as individuals and as a society, to people who are crying the blues. Take the example you gave of "a person [who] may have spent his entire life on ...welfare, living in subsidized apartments.." etc. If my taxes, taken from me against my will, have already gone to support such a deadbeat, then my attitude towards further support beyond Social Security retirement benefits will be vastly different from the example of someone who has suffered through not fault of his own. Why would my attitude be the same in both cases? How could it possibly be the same? If I have worked hard, gotten up for years and years whether I felt like it or not, to support myself and to support others who couldn't be bothered to get up when they didn't feel like it, then I'm supposed to just say "poverty is poverty"? Unfettered support of deadbeats by the state will just lead to more deadbeats. The question of why, and how, we have so many people in poverty is indeed an important and critical one. If it's something structural in government and/or in society which needs to be changed, that would be one conclusion flowing from the question of why and how.
If you wish to support every down-and-outer of your own free will, with your own money, be my guest. You should be able to find such people to support in the centers of major cities everywhere. You will be supporting lots of drug and alcohol habits. I do not choose to support people's drug and alcohol habits if I have a choice in the matter; one important reason is because I don't think I am helping them with that kind of support.

 
Old 09-19-2011, 04:53 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,497,588 times
Reputation: 29076
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
It matters to me because it has a lot to do with how we may respond, both as individuals and as a society, to people who are crying the blues. Take the example you gave of "a person [who] may have spent his entire life on ...welfare, living in subsidized apartments.." etc. If my taxes, taken from me against my will, have already gone to support such a deadbeat, then my attitude towards further support beyond Social Security retirement benefits will be vastly different from the example of someone who has suffered through not fault of his own. Why would my attitude be the same in both cases? How could it possibly be the same? If I have worked hard, gotten up for years and years whether I felt like it or not, to support myself and to support others who couldn't be bothered to get up when they didn't feel like it, then I'm supposed to just say "poverty is poverty"? Unfettered support of deadbeats by the state will just lead to more deadbeats. The question of why, and how, we have so many people in poverty is indeed an important and critical one. If it's something structural in government and/or in society which needs to be changed, that would be one conclusion flowing from the question of why and how.
If you wish to support every down-and-outer of your own free will, with your own money, be my guest. You should be able to find such people to support in the centers of major cities everywhere. You will be supporting lots of drug and alcohol habits. I do not choose to support people's drug and alcohol habits if I have a choice in the matter; one important reason is because I don't think I am helping them with that kind of support.
TRANSLATION (with thanks to Charles Dickens):

First Collector: At this festive time of year, Mr. Scrooge, it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute.
Ebenezer: Are there no prisons?
First Collector: Plenty of prisons.
Ebenezer: And the union workhouses - are they still in operation?
First Collector: They are. I wish I could say they were not.
Ebenezer: Oh, from what you said at first I was afraid that something had happened to stop them in their useful course. I'm very glad to hear it.
First Collector: I don't think you quite understand us, sir. A few of us are endeavoring to buy the poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth.
Ebenezer: Why?
First Collector: Because it is at Christmastime that want is most keenly felt, and abundance rejoices. Now what can I put you down for?
Ebenezer: Huh! Nothing!
Second Collector: You wish to be anonymous?
Ebenezer: [firmly, but calmly] I wish to be left alone. Since you ask me what I wish sir, that is my answer. I help to support the establishments I have named; those who are badly off must go there.
First Collector: Many can't go there.
Second Collector: And some would rather die.
Ebeneezer: If they would rather die, they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.

Last edited by Curmudgeon; 09-19-2011 at 05:51 PM..
 
Old 09-19-2011, 04:53 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 67,186,293 times
Reputation: 22375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
It matters to me because it has a lot to do with how we may respond, both as individuals and as a society, to people who are crying the blues. Take the example you gave of "a person [who] may have spent his entire life on ...welfare, living in subsidized apartments.." etc. If my taxes, taken from me against my will, have already gone to support such a deadbeat, then my attitude towards further support beyond Social Security retirement benefits will be vastly different from the example of someone who has suffered through not fault of his own. Why would my attitude be the same in both cases? How could it possibly be the same? If I have worked hard, gotten up for years and years whether I felt like it or not, to support myself and to support others who couldn't be bothered to get up when they didn't feel like it, then I'm supposed to just say "poverty is poverty"? Unfettered support of deadbeats by the state will just lead to more deadbeats. The question of why, and how, we have so many people in poverty is indeed an important and critical one. If it's something structural in government and/or in society which needs to be changed, that would be one conclusion flowing from the question of why and how.
If you wish to support every down-and-outer of your own free will, with your own money, be my guest. You should be able to find such people to support in the centers of major cities everywhere. You will be supporting lots of drug and alcohol habits. I do not choose to support people's drug and alcohol habits if I have a choice in the matter; one important reason is because I don't think I am helping them with that kind of support.
Trust me, I am with you as far as how I FEEL knowing my tax dollars go to ANYONE sitting on his/her arse. I resent it mightily.

However, I have decided that since it appears this country is going to hell in a handbasket w/ a brazen (and successful!) attempt by this administration with shifting wealth and making sure those who haven't worked for crap manage a middleclass lifestyle whilst I bust my butt to maintain that same lifestyle . . . it isn't gonna do me any good to distinguish why someone is elderly and in poverty. It just makes me angry and raises my blood pressure. I can't do a darned thing about it.

The latest "gubment scam" involves a HUD program that this administration has pushed to fund to the max and it is so shocking no one believes me when I tell them about it. It is now possible for a person who receives a HUD voucher to use that voucher (your tax dollars!) to pay for a mortgage. Yep. I can't remember whether it is Fannie or Freddie who is making the loans (Frannie, maybe?) . . . and get this . . . to be qualified for the mortgage . . . the applicant does not have to show he/she has worked in 2 years. And . .. there is yet another program that will issue ANOTHER voucher to "make up the difference" if the mortgage is not covered by the original voucher. So this Prez has figured out how to take your tax dollars and hand them over to someone else who will then use your tax dollars to pay for their mortgage, while you may very well be upside down on your own mortgage, or even worse, have lost your own home to foreclosure. So while you are out renting b/c your credit is screwed and you can't afford another home b/c the job you replaced the one you lost with pays 1/2 the salary, someone else, on food stamps and medicaid may have bought your foreclosed home with vouchers!!!! GO FIGURE.

Thus, I have decided - I don't even want to know why someone is struggling (if they are retired). It just doesn't matter cause no one cares what the tax payers of this country think. Gubment programs are out there creating generational poverty at your and my expense and there is nothing we can do about it. Instead of addressing this entitlement society and the folks who think the rest of us owe them a "lifestyle" (not talking about people with LEGITIMATE NEED, such as disability, eldercare, etc) . . . the President is figuring out ways to shift more money from my pocket to someone else's who has spent a lifetime with their hands out . . . and now that entitlement burden is so high - the solution is "adjust" social security payments.

I have given up. I just want to make sure my generation gets the benefits of a system we not only paid into - but some kind of benefit from all the other tax dollars that were taken out of our checks to fund the bottom feeders of this country who haven't put in SQUAT but will continue to receive THEIR payout til the day they die, including subsidized rent, subsidized food, subsidized healthcare, subsidized heat, subsidized winterizing of their subsidized home, etc etc etc.

So yes, it doesn't matter to me why someone is in a bad financial situation in retirement any longer. It just matters to me how I, and my peers, are gonna survive.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 04:55 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,497,588 times
Reputation: 29076
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
Thus, I have decided - I don't even want to know why someone is struggling (if they are retired). It just doesn't matter cause no one cares what the tax payers of this country think. Gubment programs are out there creating generational poverty at your and my expense and there is nothing we can do about it. Instead of addressing this entitlement society and the folks who think the rest of us owe them a "lifestyle" (not talking about people with LEGITIMATE NEED, such as disability, eldercare, etc) . . . the President is figuring out ways to shift more money from my pocket to someone else's who has spent a lifetime with their hands out . . . and now that entitlement burden is so high - the solution is "adjust" social security payments.

I have given up. I just want to make sure my generation gets the benefits of a system we not only paid into - but some kind of benefit from all the other tax dollars that were taken out of our checks to fund the bottom feeders of this country who haven't put in SQUAT but will continue to receive THEIR payout til the day they die, including subsidized rent, subsidized food, subsidized healthcare, subsidized heat, subsidized winterizing of their subsidized home, etc etc etc.

So yes, it doesn't matter to me why someone is in a bad financial situation in retirement any longer. It just matters to me how I, and my peers, are gonna survive.
Another one. See my above post.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 05:03 PM
 
710 posts, read 1,326,688 times
Reputation: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas User View Post
Why do you chose to live this way?

Did you plan for your retirement at all in your early years?

Not enough education on investments and how money works?

Unfortunate life events? (Disability, Long-term unemployement in your career, very low-income earnings, etc)
I wonder why some people choose to play passive-aggressive, Monday morning Quarterback. Judging from your questions and answers, your idealistic youth and wet behind the ears attitude tells me that our future does not look bright.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 05:06 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 67,186,293 times
Reputation: 22375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Another one. See my above post.
I am absolutely convinced that the "real" plan to reduce the federal debt has a lot more to do with hoping Boomers die off quickly than it does with piling more taxes on the "ultra rich" (not my term! Someone has to making more money than $250K/year to be anything other than "pseudo rich" in my book, lol).
 
Old 09-19-2011, 05:07 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 67,186,293 times
Reputation: 22375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillrunner View Post
I wonder why some people choose to play passive-aggressive, Monday morning Quarterback. Judging from your questions and answers, your idealistic youth and wet behind the ears attitude tells me that our future does not look bright.
I hope OP is young! Shocking to think he/she might be old enough to know better, lol.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 05:17 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 67,186,293 times
Reputation: 22375
I just wanna add . . . poverty is horrible, regardless of how a person got there. No one wants to see anyone, young or old, suffering in poverty.

My problem with placing blame is that some of the poverty in this country has been directly created by entitlements that have encouraged people to sit on their arses, having babies that up the check every month, and contributing nothing to society other than consumerism. I feel this country has made it possible for this behavior. Meanwhile, those in real need - the working poor, those w/ physical disability, the elderly - are limited as to what benefits they even qualify for, despite working all (or most) of their lives.

We talk about cutting entitlements but here is the rub: even tho I think most responsible folks would agree that we would like to kick the moochers off the welfare rolls - what happens to them once we do that? We have encouraged their lifestyle and they have scraped by under the radar w/ no education, a passle of kids, and the only thing they understand is gaming the system. What happens when there is no more "system?" We need to address the REASONS for poverty and correct those situations - but that ain't gonna happen. In this country, we only throw money at situations, until we have drained the coffers and now everyone is lining up to grab what part of the pie is left - and there seems to be a deliberate attempt to create animosity - class warfare, if you will - between those scraping by and those who have made a lot of $$$.

Social Security should be distinguished from other entitlements by referring to it as something like a "vested entitlement" since people paid into that system. We need to get real as to who really deserves what and based on something other than Roosevelt's New Deal policies and Johnson's Great Society guidelines, as it were.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 05:48 PM
GLS
 
1,985 posts, read 4,848,399 times
Reputation: 2408
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
I just wanna add . . . poverty is horrible, regardless of how a person got there......
I started in poverty and transitioned to being "well off". Certainly, advancement doesn't mean you have to discard your compassion. However, unless 100% of your Life is out of your control (and it seldom is), "poverty" can be a powerful and useful motivator.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 05:55 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 67,186,293 times
Reputation: 22375
Quote:
Originally Posted by GLS View Post
I started in poverty and transitioned to being "well off". Certainly, advancement doesn't mean you have to discard your compassion. However, unless 100% of your Life is out of your control (and it seldom is), "poverty" can be a powerful and useful motivator.
True - and I agree with you. However, generational poverty, when underwritten by welfare checks, has in many cases simply produced more folks who feel comfortable limiting the horizon of their lives to yet more subsidies and marginalized poverty.
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