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Old 09-23-2011, 08:23 AM
 
9,224 posts, read 9,295,009 times
Reputation: 28923

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Quote:
Oh really? It isn't the basis for calling into account the ridiculous programs that have created not only generational poverty but also a "gimme" entitlement attitude amongst those who have figured out how to game "the system?"

Bureaucracies are wasteful. Period. That is a known fact.

There are several fallacies in the OP's argument. The first and obvious one is that "two wrongs don't make a right". Because the government misspent $2 million dollars doesn't justify other mistakes that may run into the billions.

The second and worst fallacy of all is the simple reality that all the negativity, whining, and bitching in this world isn't going to fix the fix the problems with Medicare. It simply diverts attention from what ought to be obvious and that is that we need Medicare and it needs to be changed. Not abolished, not eliminated, but fixed. There is nothing I find more intolerable than someone who takes the view in life that "I got mine, now I'll pull up the ladder behind me".

A third fallacy is, as others have stated, that its possible to run a government as large as the one in the United States with zero waste, fraud, and abuse. No public or private organization of this size has ever been run without waste, fraud, or abuse and expecting this is completely unrealistic.

A fourth and more minor fallacy is that the government itself did not spend money to research Chinese prostitutes. The government funded a research project conducted by someone privately who ended up studying this as part of his/her overall project.

Now, its uncomfortable for many here to do it, but we are going to talk again about what an entitlement is. An entitlement is a program that is guaranteed people by law. it is guaranteed them, irrespective of how much they have actually contributed to the program and how much they take out of it. The reality today is that almost all seniors who are 75 or older, have taken more out of Medicare than they have put it into. This is true even when we figure a reasonable interest rate (say 6%) on the money they were taxed for the program. Go ahead, tell me you don't take "welfare". Tell me all those poor women driving Cadillacs and taking public assistance. If you are taking more out of Medicare than you put in, there's some hypocrisy there.

I'm not saying don't take your Medicare. I am saying if you and the OP were responsible people that you'd stop whining and come up with ways to restore Medicare's solvency for future generations. Those would include additional taxes (at least on those of us like me who are older than 50). It would include price controls on medical care costs. It would include a later retirement age and eligibility for Medicare. It would not include always trying to blame others for something that all of us have contributed too.
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:32 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
28,554 posts, read 62,302,713 times
Reputation: 32315
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
Oh really? It isn't the basis for calling into account the ridiculous programs that have created not only generational poverty but also a "gimme" entitlement attitude amongst those who have figured out how to game "the system?"
Huh? The examples up to now were the 2milion here 2million there projects.
You have just moved the goalposts ... into a whole other state.

Quote:
Bureaucracies are wasteful. Period. That is a known fact.
Even the ones we like and approve of.
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:45 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 67,220,362 times
Reputation: 22380
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
There are several fallacies in the OP's argument. The first and obvious one is that "two wrongs don't make a right". Because the government misspent $2 million dollars doesn't justify other mistakes that may run into the billions.

The second and worst fallacy of all is the simple reality that all the negativity, whining, and bitching in this world isn't going to fix the fix the problems with Medicare. It simply diverts attention from what ought to be obvious and that is that we need Medicare and it needs to be changed. Not abolished, not eliminated, but fixed. There is nothing I find more intolerable than someone who takes the view in life that "I got mine, now I'll pull up the ladder behind me".

A third fallacy is, as others have stated, that its possible to run a government as large as the one in the United States with zero waste, fraud, and abuse. No public or private organization of this size has ever been run without waste, fraud, or abuse and expecting this is completely unrealistic.

A fourth and more minor fallacy is that the government itself did not spend money to research Chinese prostitutes. The government funded a research project conducted by someone privately who ended up studying this as part of his/her overall project.

Now, its uncomfortable for many here to do it, but we are going to talk again about what an entitlement is. An entitlement is a program that is guaranteed people by law. it is guaranteed them, irrespective of how much they have actually contributed to the program and how much they take out of it. The reality today is that almost all seniors who are 75 or older, have taken more out of Medicare than they have put it into. This is true even when we figure a reasonable interest rate (say 6%) on the money they were taxed for the program. Go ahead, tell me you don't take "welfare". Tell me all those poor women driving Cadillacs and taking public assistance. If you are taking more out of Medicare than you put in, there's some hypocrisy there.

I'm not saying don't take your Medicare. I am saying if you and the OP were responsible people that you'd stop whining and come up with ways to restore Medicare's solvency for future generations. Those would include additional taxes (at least on those of us like me who are older than 50). It would include price controls on medical care costs. It would include a later retirement age and eligibility for Medicare. It would not include always trying to blame others for something that all of us have contributed too.
Ummmm. I haven't been whining and I have offered solutions, on this forum (in the past) - and in REAL LIFE. In fact, I work with hospitals and physicians so I am quite aware of what is going on w/ Medicare regs. And I am not retired and don't plan to ever retire.

Your condescension is misdirected towards me, sir.

We all understand what an entitlement is. It is my opinion, and I am certainly "entitled" to having an opinion . . . that some entitlements have outlived their usefulness and the regs creating them should be either abolished or amended.

When you talk about Medicare, you are talking about a vast bureaucracy. Let's start looking at reimbursement to physicians while also examining physician contracts and salaries. Physicians are grossly overpaid in this country. Let's look at the pharmaceutical industry and contracts for meds. There are many places to look for cuts in conjunction with coverage reduction (wh/ is already taking place).

Our federal government has taken on the role of being the provider or everything to everyone, as long as you qualify under various regs for those services - from nutrition programs to housing to winterizing that subsidized house.

The only people who believe this is not a socialist country are the folks out there working and paying taxes, lol. Since they are not receiving a list of "gimmes" they don't realize how many are, methinks.
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:51 AM
 
6,444 posts, read 3,368,497 times
Reputation: 6632
Re: Government waste:
How about the $10 million of our tax dollars flying our of the Kabul airport every week in suitcases carried by corrupt Afghan politicians that we have known about for YEARS, and allowed to keep happening.
It's all such madness these days, I don't waste time anymore stewing about it---rather work in my garden which at least makes some kind of sense.
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Old 09-23-2011, 09:17 AM
 
Location: The Land of Reason
13,300 posts, read 10,509,378 times
Reputation: 3541
Quote:
Originally Posted by PacificFlights View Post
Waste is part of governement. It's built into everything they do. Many parts of the economy depends on that waste factor for them to make money. If you eliminate the waste, you are really talking baout eliminating good american jobs and reducing the income that comes into the US economy. Cutting medicare does not in anyway equal having to say your eliminating american jobs. Cutting Medicare could also result in faster death rates of seniors which equals less benefits to pay out which equals less governement expenses. To a whole group of people, that's the best scenerio. truth is, waste has become so much part of governement that its now a program that politicians fight to preserve, even if that means a sad life for grams.
This is the premise for the tea party, unfortunately since waste occurs on both sides of the aisle the tea baggers are attacking only the democrats which proves that there is more to them that meets the eye
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Old 09-23-2011, 10:48 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 67,220,362 times
Reputation: 22380
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainrose View Post
Re: Government waste:
How about the $10 million of our tax dollars flying our of the Kabul airport every week in suitcases carried by corrupt Afghan politicians that we have known about for YEARS, and allowed to keep happening.
It's all such madness these days, I don't waste time anymore stewing about it---rather work in my garden which at least makes some kind of sense.
I know how you feel. Not like we can do a dern thing about it. Politicians create gimme programs to get the vote from those who benefit from those programs . . . the rest of us be damned.

I agree . . . best I don't even get online these days. I am with you - it is out to the garden I go . . . a weed is a weed is a weed - no deception when I am dealing with them, lol.
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Old 09-23-2011, 11:04 AM
 
Location: SoCal
6,075 posts, read 9,545,412 times
Reputation: 5832
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
...The only people who believe this is not a socialist country are the folks out there working and paying taxes, lol. Since they are not receiving a list of "gimmes" they don't realize how many are, methinks.
This doesn't make sense. The ones who believe that this is a socialist country that needs to be corrected are the tea-partiers, and they mainly *are* working and paying taxes.

Anyone who thinks this is a socialist country needs to look at England, France, the Scandinavian countries ... in fact most of the developed countries in the world. The USA is nowhere near being a socialist country.
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Old 09-23-2011, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 19,001,270 times
Reputation: 15649
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
There is nothing I find more intolerable than someone who takes the view in life that "I got mine, now I'll pull up the ladder behind me".

You got that right. That would be the generation behind us, i.e. our parents.

A third fallacy is, as others have stated, that its possible to run a government as large as the one in the United States with zero waste, fraud, and abuse. No public or private organization of this size has ever been run without waste, fraud, or abuse and expecting this is completely unrealistic.

Oh so let's focus in on the elders, the real culprits.

Almost forgot: "The government’s backing of Solyndra, which could cost taxpayers more than a half-billion dollars, came as the politically well-connected business began an extensive lobbying campaign that appears to have blinded government officials to the company’s financial condition..." That's one heck of a lot of small change to squander not to mention the lost jobs. That falls under...waste? fraud? abuse? failure to do a little homework?


A fourth and more minor fallacy is that the government itself did not spend money to research Chinese prostitutes. The government funded a research project conducted by someone privately who ended up studying this as part of his/her overall project.

Yes, research is always good. How about some research on how millions of elders are going to fare? Maybe they will have to take up prostitution to survive, and will net some grant money for a study.

Now, its uncomfortable for many here to do it, but we are going to talk again about what an entitlement is. An entitlement is a program that is guaranteed people by law. it is guaranteed them, irrespective of how much they have actually contributed to the program and how much they take out of it. The reality today is that almost all seniors who are 75 or older, have taken more out of Medicare than they have put it into. This is true even when we figure a reasonable interest rate (say 6%) on the money they were taxed for the program. Go ahead, tell me you don't take "welfare". Tell me all those poor women driving Cadillacs and taking public assistance. If you are taking more out of Medicare than you put in, there's some hypocrisy there.

As I've said, end Medicare. Everyone for himself. It's going in that direction anyway, why wait?

I'm not saying don't take your Medicare. I am saying if you and the OP were responsible people that you'd stop whining and come up with ways to restore Medicare's solvency for future generations. Those would include additional taxes (at least on those of us like me who are older than 50). It would include price controls on medical care costs. It would include a later retirement age and eligibility for Medicare. It would not include always trying to blame others for something that all of us have contributed too.

Just kind of funny we find loads of money for the things we need, like war and killing innocent civilians as a "casualty" of those "wars." There's ALWAYS money for the right agendas. What have you done to fix the monster?
I say end Medicare, problem solved, everyone can go back to reading their newspapers.

Last edited by RiverBird; 09-23-2011 at 11:28 AM..
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Old 09-23-2011, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Orlando, Fl
492 posts, read 1,242,170 times
Reputation: 452
I'll bet at Valley Forge they were critics winning that Washington was wasting to many bullets on the British.
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Old 09-24-2011, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
16,133 posts, read 20,844,095 times
Reputation: 8293
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
I say end Medicare, problem solved, everyone can go back to reading their newspapers.
Thank you Mr Ryan.
It's what the Koch owned Party has wanted since Medicare became law.
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