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Old 10-16-2011, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Finally escaped The People's Republic of California
11,119 posts, read 7,571,803 times
Reputation: 6218

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Well one thing is for sure:
Before welfare and all these other Social Programs, the American poor worked! They were the workers in the chicken plants and the farm labor, and guess what? There wasn't an illegal alien problem!
Unfortunatley for those that choose to work, American Corporations for the most part don't offer defined pension plans anymore, so Social Security is a Social Program that must stick around. It been proven that alot of folks just can't save for themselves.
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:17 AM
JRR
 
Location: Middle Tennessee
3,679 posts, read 2,228,572 times
Reputation: 5230
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewToCA View Post
Cain's plan shifts tax burden to those not paying taxes today, and clearly increases taxes for those with lower incomes.

Interestingly, he does find it critical to exclude one class of income from any taxation:

- Features zero tax on capital gains and repatriated profits...eliminates double taxation of dividends


999 | Herman Cain for President
Under 9-9-9 someone can make a few mouse clicks on a stock trade and make $2000 and pay zero taxes because it is a capital gain. Another person has to work 200 hours at $10 an hour for that same amount, and gets taxed 9%. I guess I'm crazy, but that doesn't seem right to me.
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,821 posts, read 19,916,125 times
Reputation: 23231
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRR View Post
Under 9-9-9 someone can make a few mouse clicks on a stock trade and make $2000 and pay zero taxes because it is a capital gain. Another person has to work 200 hours at $10 an hour for that same amount, and gets taxed 9%. I guess I'm crazy, but that doesn't seem right to me.

You're not supposed to think about it.....just raise your fist, shake it and yell....9!9!9!
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Old 10-16-2011, 01:12 PM
 
29,782 posts, read 34,880,403 times
Reputation: 11705
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRR View Post
Under 9-9-9 someone can make a few mouse clicks on a stock trade and make $2000 and pay zero taxes because it is a capital gain. Another person has to work 200 hours at $10 an hour for that same amount, and gets taxed 9%. I guess I'm crazy, but that doesn't seem right to me.
So after you have paid taxes on your earned income invest some of what you have already paid taxes on and enjoy the fruit of your effort tax free. Remember there are capital gains and capital losses. If there is no capital gains tax you probably will not be able to write your losses off. At least with your earned income you know in advance how much you are going to get paid.
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Old 10-16-2011, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
13,784 posts, read 23,815,442 times
Reputation: 6195
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
So after you have paid taxes on your earned income invest some of what you have already paid taxes on and enjoy the fruit of your effort tax free. Remember there are capital gains and capital losses. If there is no capital gains tax you probably will not be able to write your losses off. At least with your earned income you know in advance how much you are going to get paid.
Cain will never get any broad based support for this proposal, no matter the philosophical justifications provided for excluding capital gains and dividends.

It is an easy proposal to rip apart, the Democrats would have a field day with this concept.

From my own perspective, I don't think everything Cain thinks here is bad, like most things I think there are some decent ideas behind the proposal.

If I were tweaking it, I'd probably want to see what type of revenue would be generated from something like this:

Corp Tax - 12%

Income Tax - 5% on first $10,000, 10% on $10,001-$125,000, 20% over $125,000 (personal exemptions of $10,000 per person, no deductions)

Capital Gain, Interest and Dividends - 70% of personal income tax rates

Sales Tax - national sales tax of 7%, state sales taxes remain in place

Social Security and Medicare - taxes continue as structured, fine tune contribution rates, contribution ceiling, age of benefit eligibility, cost of living increases and medical deductibles and co-pays as needed to keep systems solvent
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Old 10-16-2011, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
21,541 posts, read 44,039,638 times
Reputation: 15150
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
I am retired on pension. My pension is below the current minimum for paying income taxes.

A 9% tax would severely hinder my standard of living, and possibly effect my ability to support myself.
Same here. Pension is minuscule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boompa View Post
The 9-9-9 Plan eliminates Social Security and Medicare IMMEDIATELY
All payments immediately? Or future participation. Of course, if working people no longer paid in, benefits couldn't be paid to the retired. Can we say mass poverty? I worked for over 53 years. With earnings, my SS 'trust funds' (I know they're not there) between self and employer are over $400,000. Cancel SS and that $400,000 annuity is gone. How is that going to work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
In keeping with the topic of this thread, there are many, many retirees who could be among the displaced/homeless, and who could turn to draining the resources of any federal or state help agencies. It could, if you imagine for a moment, be a real mess.
True. What federal or state agencies? Everything is being defunded as we type.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
Note that best I can tell under the Cain plan - there has been no determination whether or not some of the things that are commonly exempt from state sales taxes - like food -
Cain was on Meet The Press today saying food would be taxed. But because all the upline taxes would not occur, the tax savings to the farmer/manufacturer would 'trickle down' and the end product would be cheaper. Therefore, the consumer could afford a 9% tax for food. I'm selling a bridge to nowhere, if anyone is interested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
I am certain that in the future many workers would dump their tax-able pensions, in favor of mutual funds which would be tax-free.
Not me. What fool would risk the stock market in lieu of a guaranteed sum? Unless one is particularly skilled at investment management, this is a loser for 95% of the retired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
Yes, we must hammer folks with $10k/year pensions. Having so much money I am certain provides them luxury accommodations.
Or, even less than $10k. Indeed, living high on the hog.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
We have a 401K plan that I just laugh at. We've had it for twenty plus years. We followed all the standard advice about investing. We never taken anything out of it. We've actually increased the amount going way above the point where the employer matches contributions.

Net result? After twenty plus years a sum of under $100,000. Why? We've had the misfortune to be investing during a time when there have been at least three recessions that I can count--including the latest mega recession.
Put your money in your 401k GIC/Stable Asset Fund. I once worked with an atty who said the tax savings alone was worth the contribution. He was happy with whatever the GIC paid, as it, too, would be tax-free. And you don't lose principal. The market as a whole has been loser for over 10 years. Regular tax-free deposits earning tax-free at even 2-5% interest come out a winner - except for the 10% in the market who can make money in good times and bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
I am sure that Mathjak and Robyn amongst others would tell you that your investment strategy is what yielded your results.
Absolutely. If you can do in-service rollovers to a rollover IRA at Vanguard (or anywhere), buy VWINX. I started in-service rollovers out of my 401k at 55 years of age and put the money where I could control it. Most plans allow that.

VWINX: Vanguard Wellesley Income Inv Fund Chart | Morningstar

Otherwise look into designing a Permanent Portfolio. Been a winner for a long long time with a low beta. Manage it yourself. Very easy.

Permanent Portfolio Discussion Forum - Index

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
So after you have paid taxes on your earned income invest some of what you have already paid taxes on and enjoy the fruit of your effort tax free. Remember there are capital gains and capital losses. If there is no capital gains tax you probably will not be able to write your losses off. At least with your earned income you know in advance how much you are going to get paid.
With the current income disparity and wages in a continued decline, the ability to save becomes harder and harder. I was able to, still am. But for people earning half of what I did or less - not likely, anymore. 9-9-9 is a serious loser for people at the bottom.

Last edited by Ariadne22; 10-16-2011 at 03:56 PM.. Reason: Corrected 401k to IRA
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Old 10-16-2011, 02:41 PM
 
2,912 posts, read 3,551,245 times
Reputation: 4103
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRR View Post
Under 9-9-9 someone can make a few mouse clicks on a stock trade and make $2000 and pay zero taxes because it is a capital gain. Another person has to work 200 hours at $10 an hour for that same amount, and gets taxed 9%. I guess I'm crazy, but that doesn't seem right to me.
You just don't understand. See, the working poor and elderly people trying to survive on small pensions are freeloaders, who should man-up to the tax burden, whereas a rich, idle heir who makes these mouse clicks is a patriot enjoying the fruits of his labor, and therefore shouldn't pay any taxes at all on the gains.
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Old 10-16-2011, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,938,980 times
Reputation: 6716
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
...If the economy goes further downhill because of reduced demand, resulting from lower government spending not only will unemployment rise, but there will be even less tax revenue to repay our debts...

There's massive support for public schools here. The legislature enacted a voucher law. It got put on the ballot as a referendum and it was overwhelmingly repealed...

Heard this argument before. However, those policies are great if you are taking out another mortgage like I am right now. (3.6%--15 years)
The important reduced demand is coming from the consumer (it's consumer spending that drives our economy for the most part - not government spending). And the game is up. No longer can a wife enter the work force and increase the family income (because she's in the work force already). No longer can consumers use the family house as a piggy bank. And many consumers can't get better paying jobs because they lack the skills for those jobs.

The reason you have massive support for public schools in Utah is they're almost all lily white and middle class. Not much religious diversity either - about 70% of Utah's population is LDS. Doesn't look like many school systems in other parts of the US.

The dynamic in the metro area where I live is more common. I live in a "white flight/"non-poor flight" county which is next to a county where about 30% of all students are black - and more are poor. That county tries lots of things in terms of schools to improve student performance - and to keep its non-black/non-poor population with kids from leaving - magnet schools - charters - etc. - etc. But - in the end - people who don't have the money for private schools have a tendency to move to another county - like mine - or to move to one of the few parts of the county where people are relatively well-off - and the public schools are ok (at least through middle school).

I had a funny thought. Utah has guys with 5 women and 13 kids. So do large parts of the black trash and white trash and misc. trash communities in other parts of the US. The only difference is - in Utah - the men try to marry all the women. And in the trash communities - they don't marry any of them. At this point - I think that perhaps the guys in Utah have the better idea (at least of those 2 approaches to women and kids - I don't much like either).

I don't know why the fed should be using all of its considerable power to twist the yield curve so you (or anyone else) can get a cheap mortgage. Not that I blame you for taking advantage of the situation (I would if I were in your shoes). Robyn
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Old 10-16-2011, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,938,980 times
Reputation: 6716
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post

Assets and Portfolios?

Had not heard of this part. Who is going to do the accounting of Net Worth? That would require a huge growing of the IRS.
I don't think that's part of the plan (I couldn't find it mentioned anywhere). Robyn
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Old 10-16-2011, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,938,980 times
Reputation: 6716
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
Nine percent of $millions is a drop in the bucket.

Nine percent of a $1400 SS check, minimum wage check, or earnings of 2.5% on a CD is not.



Once again it's the elite coming up with a proposed solution that only the elite could bear.
On Meet the Press today - I am pretty sure I heard Cain say that social security benefits wouldn't be taxed. But again - I can't find that anywhere in the written proposals.
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