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Old 10-17-2011, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,920,408 times
Reputation: 6716

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OK Mr. Rational - think of employers in perhaps the top 5% - and what jobs they could give to the marginally employed. What do you come up with? I come up with next to zilch - because one reason a lot of marginally employed are marginally employed is they lack the skills to compete effectively in today's work force. That's certainly true in Florida - where about 1/3 of all students don't even graduate from high school:

Florida high schools boosting graduation rates by removing struggling students from rolls - Orlando Sentinel

Of course - a lot of the kids who stay in high school are no great shakes either. In general - fewer than half are scoring at grade level or better on standardized tests (the FCAT) in basic subjects like reading and math.

Even many recent college grads wind up in marginal jobs - because they don't have any skills that employers want to pay for. I know at least 3 recent grads with photography degrees. Kind of a degree in relatively useless studies. Our governor recently ruffled a lot of feathers when he suggested that college students should be learning more useful skills - but I think he was on target.

Laurence Reisman: Gov. Rick Scott right to target higher university educational funding toward math, sciences, away from some liberal arts TCPalm.com

Technology has of course eliminated some jobs - but it has created others. OTOH - even a blue collar worker needs more tech skills to do his job today (which may consist of troubleshooting the mother board in your kitchen oven). I may have sympathy for the 55 year old whose job has become obsolete in the last 20 years - but I don't have sympathy for the 20 year old who should know what's out there these days in the job market - but doesn't prepare for it. Robyn
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Old 10-17-2011, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,018 posts, read 17,726,438 times
Reputation: 32304
Default Big practical problem with a value added tax (federal sales tax)

How would a federal sales tax (VAT) impact the states? The various states currently have such a mixture of taxation which differs enormously from state to state. A few states have no sales tax, but they make up for it with higher income and property taxes and fees. A few states have no income tax but they make it up with higher sales taxes and property taxes and fees. California has relatively low property taxes but high income and sales taxes.

Now what would happen to a high sales tax state like California if they added a 9% VAT on top of the existing 8% state sales tax? People would not stand for that; it would be outrageous. California would pretty much have to cut its sales tax drastically, and the result would be cutting that state off at the knees.

The impact of the triple 9 plan on the states would vary tremendously, and in some states (not only California) it would be disruptive with a capital D. And many of those states are already skating on the edge financially.
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:07 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
28,487 posts, read 62,101,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
OK Mr. Rational - think of employers in perhaps the top 5%
No thanks.
The OP might be interested in that discussion.
Maybe they'll come back and clarify their point.
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:21 PM
 
Location: The Land of Reason
13,300 posts, read 10,490,783 times
Reputation: 3541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
How would a federal sales tax (VAT) impact the states? The various states currently have such a mixture of taxation which differs enormously from state to state. A few states have no sales tax, but they make up for it with higher income and property taxes and fees. A few states have no income tax but they make it up with higher sales taxes and property taxes and fees. California has relatively low property taxes but high income and sales taxes.

Now what would happen to a high sales tax state like California if they added a 9% VAT on top of the existing 8% state sales tax? People would not stand for that; it would be outrageous. California would pretty much have to cut its sales tax drastically, and the result would be cutting that state off at the knees.

The impact of the triple 9 plan on the states would vary tremendously, and in some states (not only California) it would be disruptive with a capital D. And many of those states are already skating on the edge financially.
People tend to forget that this man is looking out for his own best interest and has not gave too much thought on how this stupid plan whould not work on the national level. I read in another post that he got the idea from a SIMs game
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:27 PM
 
2,912 posts, read 3,547,901 times
Reputation: 4103
^^ The 999 plan shows what a shallow thinker Mr. Pizza is. Here's a guy who is willing to upend the entire US economy based on nothing more than his theory (or did it come from SimCity?). The effects of 999 rippling through the economy are incomprehensible, and would take years to sort out. Talk about a lightweight who is willing to bet my future on his nitwit theory!

Last edited by Hamish Forbes; 10-17-2011 at 01:38 PM..
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:28 PM
 
29,772 posts, read 34,851,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
I doubt that was the intended implication.

The likely implication, and one I've made before, is about the lack of investment by the 1%
using the retained earnings hoard they control which activity will/could produce meaningful employment
for more and better compensation for the marginally employed... so they can all pay taxes too.


Very little does when inelegant statements get re-phrased by others...
rather than asking for clarification and waiting for that.

hth
The sad reality is that absent increased demand capital held by industry will not be used to produce jobs. The legal question that is being asked by many of us is when will those cash reserves be used to enhance dividends to shareholders, many of whom are retiree's and pension funds. Most of the money overseas if repatriated will result in increase dividends and soaring equity prices which will benefit equity holding seniors and pension funds. Now once we have OUR money if we spend it that will increase demand and create jobs. As share holders it is OUR money.

http://www.capitalgainsandgames.com/...next-two-years

Quote:
The Congressional Research Service analyzed dividend repatriation in this February 11, 2009 study. CRS cited two studies showing that the dividends repatriated in 2004 failed to stimulate the economy or generate many domestic jobs. Most of the money went to shareholders through share repurchases and dividend payments. See this NBER paper. Even though the 2004 law prohibited using repatriated dividends for share repurchases and dividend payments, "money is fungible." That is, the companies designated the repatriated dividends for the purposes required by the law, but since those uses were already being paid for, funds were freed up in like amount for share repurchases and dividend payments.
That's part of the problem with the Occupy Wall Street it is overlapping the 1% with issues that constitute more than 1% of the population. It is like the subject of this thread the 9-9-9 plan which is many things in many different ways at the same time.
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,920,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
How would a federal sales tax (VAT) impact the states? The various states currently have such a mixture of taxation which differs enormously from state to state. A few states have no sales tax, but they make up for it with higher income and property taxes and fees. A few states have no income tax but they make it up with higher sales taxes and property taxes and fees. California has relatively low property taxes but high income and sales taxes.

Now what would happen to a high sales tax state like California if they added a 9% VAT on top of the existing 8% state sales tax? People would not stand for that; it would be outrageous. California would pretty much have to cut its sales tax drastically, and the result would be cutting that state off at the knees.

The impact of the triple 9 plan on the states would vary tremendously, and in some states (not only California) it would be disruptive with a capital D. And many of those states are already skating on the edge financially.
Canada operates with a national tax - and different tax rates/taxes in its provinces:

http://http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/17/us-walgreen-idUSTRE79G55X20111017 (http://http//www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/17/us-walgreen-idUSTRE79G55X20111017 - broken link)

As for people not standing for 17% - there are many countries in the world with higher VATs - e.g., 25% in Denmark:

Value added tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You want European type social benefits - you get European type taxes.

FWIW - I think a VAT (not instead of other taxes but on top of them) is inevitable here - because it's one tax that will raise a lot of money. Robyn

P.S. The highest sales taxes/fees I can recall paying in recent years are the car rental taxes/fees at the airport in Phoenix (about 30% plus about $5/day).
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:47 PM
GLS
 
1,985 posts, read 4,845,696 times
Reputation: 2408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
How would a federal sales tax (VAT) impact the states? The various states currently have such a mixture of taxation which differs enormously from state to state. A few states have no sales tax, but they make up for it with higher income and property taxes and fees. A few states have no income tax but they make it up with higher sales taxes and property taxes and fees. California has relatively low property taxes but high income and sales taxes.

Now what would happen to a high sales tax state like California if they added a 9% VAT on top of the existing 8% state sales tax? People would not stand for that; it would be outrageous. California would pretty much have to cut its sales tax drastically, and the result would be cutting that state off at the knees.

The impact of the triple 9 plan on the states would vary tremendously, and in some states (not only California) it would be disruptive with a capital D. And many of those states are already skating on the edge financially.
I guess the term "relatively low property taxes" is relative. While there certainly are other states with higher rates, the ACTUAL bill is padded with many fees. I just received my property tax bill for a property valued at $190,335 in Sacramento. The "county wide 1%" at $1903.35 doesn't look bad at first. However, after Library Services Tax, Reclamation District tax, Citywide Assessment, N. Natomas Landscape CFD, Neighborhood Park Maintenance, Mello-Roos fees, the total bill is $3843.78. Just my opinion, but that doesn't seem "relatively low" to me.

One final point, California has been cutting itself off at the knees for some time. Maybe it is time to cut spending on entitlements and a corrupt pension system instead of hiding revenue generation in "fees" and pretending they aren't raising taxes.
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:48 PM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
28,487 posts, read 62,101,894 times
Reputation: 32153
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
The sad reality is that absent increased demand capital held by industry will not be used to produce jobs.
And what is the single most common thing required for demand? Hmmm?

Quote:
The legal question that is being asked by many of us is when will those cash reserves be used to enhance dividends to shareholders, many of whom are retiree's and pension funds.
Another worthy discussion.

Quote:
That's part of the problem with the Occupy Wall Street it is overlapping the 1% with issues that constitute more than 1% of the population.
You're right... the references should be the top 5%; maybe even the top 10%
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:58 PM
 
4,649 posts, read 6,477,998 times
Reputation: 5394
Never believe anything until it happens. People running for office can make all kinds of promises the the real deal is when the tires hit the road and they get elected. look at the current President and dealing with Congress.

Do people not remember the reasoning of having a state lottery? No matter whet they promise at some point they will need more money and where will they get it? Taxes or fees. Herman Cain is out to sell books, CD, speaking engagements or whatever.. Sarah Palin has shown the way. 9-9-9= Hellllllll NO.

Consider this. If they did simplify the tax code how many jobs would be lost? Would you need your tax Attorney? What about your CPA? What about HR block employees then not to mention all the state and federal employees.. Just like not getting rid of liqueur or tobacco due to loss of revenue and jobs the 9-9-9 will not fly no matter the benefit.. The money makers will always make money decisions. It's the nature of the beast. All we can do is adapt.
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