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Old 11-15-2011, 11:00 PM
 
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One's perspective on life may be a result of what you see when you look around you. And although I would like to try to come up with a solution for a 45 year old construction worker in Florida who can't find a job now - even if it might cost me some dollars - I have no desire to support 17 year old mothers - 34 year old grandmothers - 51 year old great grandmothers - and great great grandmothers who are my age. Think most people in Utah - and a lot of retired people who have lived more or less middle class lives - would agree with me.
I'm quite aware we have a large segment of unwed mothers and people who have little desire to work in this country. I don't think you mean to come across as patronizing, Robyn, but I do get out. I've traveled to 46 states and 13 foreign countries.

These people are not in the majority though. I think we notice them more than others because of their color and physical characteristics. I hesitate to stereotype. Mormons have been subject to some cruel stereotypes over the years and so have Jews.

There's a lot of people out of work right now. My son is one of them. He fills out applications every day for work. He's had one unsuccessful interview in six weeks. He's not lazy. Nor is he playing the system.

I agree benefits need to be limited to those receiving public assistance. I would like to see unwed mothers being given more than just "encouragement" to place children for adoption. I'd like to see them get a genuine push. Maybe it would make more sense for society to pay them to place children for adoption than to keep and raise them?

All this dwelling on "welfare bums" though often causes us to overlook worse transgressions. Medicare and Medicaid are being defrauded to the tune of billions of dollars annually by slick white collar con artists. I think of all the "banksters" who worked for Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, and Goldman Sachs.

I frequently hear discussions about what should be done about bums on welfare. I seldom hear any real ideas to stop those committing white collar fraud. Maybe there's some truth to the idea that big crooks get "big justice" and little crooks get "little justice"? I know we had fewer problems in this country when we had a more equitable distribution of income.
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Old 11-16-2011, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
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Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
You mean forced sterilization, like they used to do in Nazi Germany?
I'll settle for single mom and 2 kids on welfare - you're maxed out on government benefits. Robyn
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Old 11-16-2011, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
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Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
That was in 1993, but even back then, the local, county and state governments had access to federal help with debris removal and other disaster related expenses, either in the form of reimbursement or direct federal aid.

Today, a federal disaster proclamation frees up literally billions of dollars to help pay the cost of debris removal, power restoration, road and bridge repairs, public safety expenses (including overtime for first responders) etc. Why do you think Governor's are always screaming for a disaster declaration? Just for the heck of it? They want the money and, in cases of really severe disasters, they really need the help or little will get done.

Case in point: Katrina felled literally thousands of trees on the heavily forested north shore of Lake Ponchartrain, in addition to a storm surge which ranged from 2 feet near the Causeway at Mandeville, LA to over 20 feet at Slidell. St. Tammany Parish was stretched far, far beyond its ability to respond, so FEMA eventually stepped in and took over most operations, including debris removal.

They contracted dozens of coal haulers from Kentucky and WV and PA to come down to south Louisiana and haul off the brush. They chose coal haulers because they pull high-sided dump trailers and could carry a lot of wood. They also contracted companies to pick up, load and dispose of billions of tons of broken trees. They had the capability to do that, and pay for it, whereas St. Tammany Parish could not have done it. The same, basic story was repeated across the Gulf Coast as far away as Florida and it's been repeated dozens of times since.

And, what's wrong with that? If our tax dollars can't be spent to assist our people when they have the greatest need, of what use is our government?
Actually - Hurricane Andrew was in 1992.

I don't usually ask for links - but could you give me a couple (perhaps you are right)? We didn't see many FEMA dollars here in Florida (at least that I could see in NE Florida) during our last really bad hurricane year (2004). Although FEMA was putting up a lot of its people at the Ritz Carlton in Sarasota for months (and I had absolutely no idea what they were doing - I'm sure they weren't hauling away trash). Robyn
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Old 11-16-2011, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,942,381 times
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Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
So, what? The best solution for disabled people, single parents or those without insurance is to move the Mojave Desert where there aren't any trees to fall on their houses?
My point is simply that people should try to live in places that are appropriate to their situations in life. Don't bite off more than you can chew - etc. Today - if it often difficult to move. But - historically - that hasn't been the case. Robyn
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Old 11-16-2011, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,674,292 times
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Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
Actually - Hurricane Andrew was in 1992.

I don't usually ask for links - but could you give me a couple (perhaps you are right)? We didn't see many FEMA dollars here in Florida (at least that I could see in NE Florida) during our last really bad hurricane year (2004). Although FEMA was putting up a lot of its people at the Ritz Carlton in Sarasota for months (and I had absolutely no idea what they were doing - I'm sure they weren't hauling away trash). Robyn

Since federal expenditures during disaster's involve so many agencies and departments, about the best I can do is give you a good starting point for doing research on your own. There are disaster dollars hidden away in the budgets of FEMA, Dept. of Labor, the EPA, the Defense Department and dozens of others which have specific, congressionally mandated responsibilities.

The National Response Framework | Emergency Management | US EPA

You must understand that everything changed after Katrina. Not only were disaster plans at the time totally overwhelmed by the length and breadth of it, at every level, but the Bush administration was publicly taken to task for it's tepid response. When that happened, the order went out: "DO SOMETHING!" And, that "something" was a massive, sudden outpouring of tax dollars. Some of it was well spent, a good bit was not. In the longer term, new plans, with new funding, were developed and Congress got into the act responding to public pressure. Katrina was a watershed event and the effects of it will be felt forever. It totally changed the way we respond to disasters.
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Old 11-16-2011, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
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Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
So...those people don't "deserve" to eat? How would YOU like to be punished the rest of your life for YOUR poor choices?...

Would you prefer to see them living on the streets, starving and dying on the sidewalks from lack of medical care, including their children?
I think the original point of this thread was about retirement. And - as I think many of us can see - it sometimes turns into an "us" versus "them" dispute. Because society - i.e., us - the people who pay taxes - can't afford to - or don't want to - pay for everything.

So as between some senior who played by all the rules - kept his or her nose clean - and needs some help now that he or she is 80+ - and some snot-nosed 19 year old you know what and her brood - I'll put my money on the senior. After all - if the 19 year developed any kind of work ethic - she could work - at something. Whereas the typical 85 year old couldn't even make it as a greeter at Walmart. Robyn
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Old 11-16-2011, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
I'll settle for single mom and 2 kids on welfare - you're maxed out on government benefits. Robyn
What government benefits? AFDC? Food stamps? Medicaid? Unemployment insurance? WIC? SCHIP? State and local too, or just federal?
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Old 11-16-2011, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,674,292 times
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Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
My point is simply that people should try to live in places that are appropriate to their situations in life. Don't bite off more than you can chew - etc. Today - if it often difficult to move. But - historically - that hasn't been the case. Robyn
They have to live somewhere and there is nowhere immune to disasters or un-planned, un-anticipated events. And, there are events which only come along once in a lifetime or once a century. How should folks "plan" for that?

And, in the case of assistance payments, who gets to decide if their place of residence isn't "appropriate to their situation" in life? What criteria will be used? What's the "punishment" if it's deemed they live in the "wrong" place?

What you're suggesting sounds great on the surface and it has a great emotional attachment, but when you attack the nuts and bolts of actually developing, and enforcing, such an idea, it breaks down, doesn't it?
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Old 11-16-2011, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,942,381 times
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Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Chainsaws? Got a gas powered one and an electric both. Last Saturday, I had to climb onto my roof to trim some oak limbs with it. Anybody can learn to operate a chainsaw. They just have to be careful. I was more concerned climbing the ladder onto my roof than using the saw.

Any homeowner around here does the same.
Suburban self-sufficiency . OTOH - my husband and I lived in mid/rise high/rise apartments and condos until we were about 50. Not much occasion to learn how to use a chainsaw. We do do a lot of stuff around the house. But we have 2 rules. Nothing on the roof and no chainsaws. FWIW - the ladders to the roof can be more dangerous than chainsaws. General Hugh Shelton - the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff - sustained more injuries falling off a ladder while trying to clean his gutters than he had during his years in the military:

Former Joint Chiefs chairman partially paralyzed after fall - CNN

Robyn
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Old 11-16-2011, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,745 posts, read 4,221,259 times
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Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Nothing like a little eugenics to illustrate this great American ideal, is there?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Unless, of course, your life, liberty and/or pursuit of happiness might indirectly cost me a few bucks or I just get pizzed off looking at you.
Just wanted to point out that your reference to Nazi Germany was unnecessary when our own country was quite adept at forced sterilization.

I could care less about the Declaration of Independence. It is irrelevant as no one in our nation has the right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." I do, however, care about the rights found in the U.S. Constitution.

I can think of a lot of people that I'd like to see sterilized and I'm not talking poor black folks. However, the only people I would seriously consider (emphasis on the word consider) sterilizing would be child rapists.

Yes, this is off topic, but Moderator - He/she started it!
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