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Old 11-05-2011, 02:27 PM
 
29,812 posts, read 34,900,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by accufitgolf View Post
If that is socialism, so be it. I would rather have that than have the elderly starving by the roadsides. There is a price for living in our society and I, for one, am happy to pay my share

I agree.

Our systems (government/private) need some tweaking but they are far from broken.

Look up Keynesian theory/economics which advocates a mixed economics. Predominantly private sector, but with a significant role of government and public sector.

I am amazed at how many forget their roots and the methods they used to get where they are. They soon want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

An aside. There are only two developed countries in the world that do not have National Health Insurance for their people. The United States and South Africa.
When I grew up in what is now over the top Ghetto America most families were producers and stressed that to their children. Those on assistance were not proud to be and did all they good to work (domestics) to have the ability to provide for their families themselves. As their kids got older they began to help provide for the family. Now the police barricade the streets to keep drug dealers and gangs under control. The producers have moved elsewhere.
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Old 11-05-2011, 02:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.”

~ Margaret Thatcher
I think that is the point people are missing. They are focused on the ideology of the topic and not the math of a decreasing pool of others peoples money and the fact you are forcing their money elsewhere. We can see it with corporations where they are fleeing high cost states to low cost states and moving jobs to countries with friendlier corporate taxes. It is happening with individuals and it is hilarious for some to complain who are also seeking the lowest cost tax states to retire to. It is this increased taxation at the state and local level as they attempt to redistribute income that has so many planning to relocate for their retirement. Hmmm that is what the thread is about how it impacts are retirement planning. Or is this relocation all about sun and humidity?
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Old 11-05-2011, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 18,997,544 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Agghhh when you have a society where the number of producers is declining and the number of those who consume beyond their contributions increasing, solutions can be elusive. In the case of Wisconsin you are lumping together the public employees who are producing services etc with those on public assistance who are consuming with minimal production. This drain on public coffers by non producers is putting a strain on the benefits of public service workers who are producing. It is far more than the top one percent who are producers in our society. So at the state and local level which shall it be?

A. Increase taxes on all producers
B. Cut benefits and salaries for public employees to redistribute those funds to those on public assistance
C. Reduce public assistance so it grows at a rate that is sustainable without doing A or B.
D. Keep increasing taxes on the top 25% of producers? That includes a lot of public employees. Especially two earner families.
The "number" of producers is declining overall because we are no longer a producing society. Wealthy people make their wealth in the financial markets, consulting, services, export, etc. They do not need the formerly "producing" masses because we are no longer an industrial society. Those who "consume beyond their (so-called) contributions" are those who have been disenfranchized from the production sector and do not have the financial means or education to transform themselves into the services & financial sectors.

The numbers are going to amass at the bottom of the pyramid very fast, while the middle class at the middle of the pyramid will not disappear overnight but will slowly be eroded from their positions, and it will not be upward but downward if they are not saved by some miracle like a mega inheritance that allows them to use this as leverage to float closer to the top. I cannot venture to guess whether the 1% at the very top will stay the same, or increase in numbers as the remainder of the pyramid shifts, but that percentage is not likely to decrease in any event.

BTW, the top 1% are not producers, by any stretch. They are supposed to be producing jobs for the middle or lower classes to justify all their tax breaks, but when will that be?

You can add an "E" to your multiple-choice test, above in your post.

E. Dramatically decrease corporate welfare, eliminate bailouts, reduce the insane defense budget (wars) and use the billions in savings to create infrastructure, production, and service jobs across the nation.
Make the rich work for their tax breaks (actually produce jobs), the banks work for their bailouts (produce small business loans, etc), ease the able-bodied off of welfare and into a job created in a massive national jobs creation program. Restore the adjective "working" in the term "working capitalism."

Last edited by RiverBird; 11-05-2011 at 03:06 PM..
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Old 11-05-2011, 03:01 PM
 
29,812 posts, read 34,900,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
The "number" of producers is declining overall because we are no longer a producing society. Wealthy people make their wealth in the financial markets, consulting, services, export, etc. They do not need the formerly "producing" masses because we are no longer an industrial society. Those who "consume beyond their (so-called) contributions" are those who have been disenfranchized from the production sector and do not have the financial means or education to transform themselves into the services & financial sectors.

The numbers are going to amass at the bottom of the pyramid very fast, while the middle class at the middle of the pyramid will not disappear overnight but will slowly be eroded from their positions, and it will not be upward but downward if they are not saved by some miracle like a mega inheritance that allows them to use this as leverage to float closer to the top. I cannot venture to guess whether the 1% at the very top will stay the same, or increase in numbers as the remainder of the pyramid shifts, but that percentage is not likely to decrease in any event.

BTW, the top 1% are not producers, by any stretch. They are supposed to be producing jobs for the middle or lower classes to justify all their tax breaks, but when will that be?

You can add an "E" to your multiple-choice test, above in your post. How much longer do we continue to provide for those who drop out of school and keep having children?

E. Dramatically decrease corporate welfare, eliminate bailouts, reduce the insane defense budget (wars) and use the billions in savings to create infrastructure, production, and service jobs across the nation.
The biggest problem with your E is that many of those things are not at work in state and local taxation. One persons bailout is another persons thank God you didn't let it collapse and take us all down with it (especially pension funds that were invested). There are 3.6-3.7 million jobs open any given day in the United States. Many stay vacant because of a lack of people with basic math and writing competencies, higher level skills or the ability to pee in a cup and pass a drug test. Remember seniors when they retire are for the most part fleeing state and local taxes. There are some discussing relocating elsewhere to avoid federal tax. There is voting at the ballot box and voting with your feet. Some times we vote with our feet to escape those voting at the ballot box where we are leaving from. The irony is that todays corporate loophole was at one point an intended tax incentive with a specific goal in mind to influence corporate operations. They become loopholes later.

Last edited by TuborgP; 11-05-2011 at 03:14 PM..
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Old 11-05-2011, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 18,997,544 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
The biggest problem with your E is that many of those things are not at work in state and local taxation. One persons bailout is another persons thank God you didn't let it collapse and take us all down with it (especially pension funds that were invested). There are 3.6-3.7 million jobs open any given day in the United States. Many stay vacant because of a lack of people with basic math and writing competencies, higher level skills or the ability to pee in a cup and pass a drug test. Remember seniors when they retire are for the most part fleeing state and local taxes. There are some discussing relocating elsewhere to avoid federal tax. There is voting at the ballot box and voting with your feet. Some times we vote with our feet to escape those voting at the ballot box where we are leaving from.
The states could get a lot of federal money for infrastructure and urban planning if they were not mired and sinking in their own debt. The states could be creating jobs then.

Consider this scenario: during the massive power failure this past week in greater New England, we were in a weeklong state of declared emergency.

There are not enough state workers or utility company employees to deal with the massive (and I mean massive, on every single street you drive down in the affected states) numbers of trees and partial trees, and utility wires, down. The National Guard, which has better things to attend to, had to be called in to help with the cleanup.

Those among the able-bodied who are receiving state welfare could be receiving wage-work under the supervision of trained work crews, cleaning up this unbelievable mess everywhere. (Hey, they do get prisoners to clean up the highways, why not those on the dole?) These adults could have been dispatched onto the streets for traffic control and neighborhood patroling, very much needed at a time like this (think of even worse disasters such as Katrina). These welfare-receiving able-bodied people could be hired temporarily toward a training program that gives them a job in the U.S. infrastructure rebuilding effort (oh, forgot, those contracts have apparently been assigned to Chinese contractors....in China ).

How would the states pay for something like this? Well, if the Fed had a decent strategic goal to ease us out of our economic mess, including cutting back the welfare rolls, and were not so busy bailing out "failed" banking institutions and handing out big corporation "assistance" checks, or in the nonstop business of war and all its incurring debt, they could have been making grants to the states for back-to-work programs such as what I suggest.

Maybe this strategy would help to break the endless cycle of individual welfare within families, as well as the endless cycle of paying for banks and corporations. Maybe the U.S. could get back to the business of governing a capitalist society and out of the business of supporting it.
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Old 11-05-2011, 03:38 PM
 
29,812 posts, read 34,900,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
The states could get a lot of federal money for infrastructure and urban planning if they were not mired and sinking in their own debt. The states could be creating jobs then.

Consider this scenario: during the massive power failure this past week in greater New England, we were in a weeklong state of declared emergency.

There are not enough state workers or utility company employees to deal with the massive (and I mean massive, on every single street you drive down in the affected states) numbers of trees and partial trees, and utility wires, down. The National Guard, which has better things to attend to, had to be called in to help with the cleanup.

Those among the able-bodied who are receiving state welfare could be receiving wage-work under the supervision of trained work crews, cleaning up this unbelievable mess everywhere. (Hey, they do get prisoners to clean up the highways, why not those on the dole?) These adults could have been dispatched onto the streets for traffic control and neighborhood patroling, very much needed at a time like this (think of even worse disasters such as Katrina). These welfare-receiving able-bodied people could be hired temporarily toward a training program that gives them a job in the U.S. infrastructure rebuilding effort (oh, forgot, those contracts have apparently been assigned to Chinese contractors....in China ).

How would the states pay for something like this? Well, if the Fed had a decent strategic goal to ease us out of our economic mess, including cutting back the welfare rolls, and were not so busy bailing out "failed" banking institutions and handing out big corporation "assistance" checks, or in the nonstop business of war and all its incurring debt, they could have been making grants to the states for back-to-work programs such as what I suggest.

Maybe this strategy would help to break the endless cycle of individual welfare within families, as well as the endless cycle of paying for banks and corporations. Maybe the U.S. could get back to the business of governing a capitalist society and out of the business of supporting it.
Yes, guns or butter or lower taxes and cut both! Some might wonder why their money has to be used to such a considerable extent for any of it? They might instead want to use it to secure THEIR retirement.
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Old 11-05-2011, 04:31 PM
 
570 posts, read 1,145,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
The states could get a lot of federal money for infrastructure and urban planning if they were not mired and sinking in their own debt. The states could be creating jobs then.

Consider this scenario: during the massive power failure this past week in greater New England, we were in a weeklong state of declared emergency.

There are not enough state workers or utility company employees to deal with the massive (and I mean massive, on every single street you drive down in the affected states) numbers of trees and partial trees, and utility wires, down. The National Guard, which has better things to attend to, had to be called in to help with the cleanup.

Those among the able-bodied who are receiving state welfare could be receiving wage-work under the supervision of trained work crews, cleaning up this unbelievable mess everywhere. .
That is a darned good idea!
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Old 11-05-2011, 04:35 PM
 
29,812 posts, read 34,900,894 times
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Originally Posted by daydreamin71 View Post
That is a darned good idea!
The irony is that when these types of natural disasters hit areas of the south folks get together and help each other out and begin to work together to make repairs. I guess it is a regional thing to want people hired instead of communities banding together. Also the poor aren't always distributed equally and where the disaster is. Also with so much of welfare being child based who will take care of them and where?
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Old 11-05-2011, 04:54 PM
 
570 posts, read 1,145,925 times
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Well, clearly, there are lots of details that would need to be worked out. I don't think NEG thought her idea was ready to be implemented as-is. But I have found that honest poor people (of which there are many) would feel a whole lot better about the funds they are receiving if they were able to work for them. And so would the taxpayers who generously provide those funds.

And what does the south, vs the north have to do with it? Are you saying the south bands together and digs themselves out of natural disasters completely? Of course not, because the scale of those disasters is too big. So why would you expect New England to do this?
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Old 11-05-2011, 05:15 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,514,657 times
Reputation: 29081
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
The biggest problem with your E is that many of those things are not at work in state and local taxation. One persons bailout is another persons thank God you didn't let it collapse and take us all down with it (especially pension funds that were invested). There are 3.6-3.7 million jobs open any given day in the United States. Many stay vacant because of a lack of people with basic math and writing competencies, higher level skills or the ability to pee in a cup and pass a drug test. Remember seniors when they retire are for the most part fleeing state and local taxes. There are some discussing relocating elsewhere to avoid federal tax. There is voting at the ballot box and voting with your feet. Some times we vote with our feet to escape those voting at the ballot box where we are leaving from. The irony is that todays corporate loophole was at one point an intended tax incentive with a specific goal in mind to influence corporate operations. They become loopholes later.
Guilty. Might have stuck around in our native state had we the slightest confidence in its governance and believed, even for a moment, that the climbing tax loads would actually go where the need was to rebuild a decaying infrastructure. But that confidence evaporated over the course of 20 years as political and legislative analysts for the state during which it became readily and glaringly apparent that funds wouldn't go where they were intended and needed. Rather, they'd go to administration and those already making huge salaries while lower positions disappeared, wages were cut back and those who remained were expected to do more with much less.

Corporate America has no love for or loyalty to this country or their employees. They DO NOT pay their fair share, nor to they buy or hire American. This country loses big time while those at the top receive obscene salaries and bonuses and buy the flavor of the month when it comes to politicians. And labor unions do the same and aren't much better. They pick their members' pockets while supporting questionable causes and passing out political payola to keep themselves in power. Politicians lack the courage to stand up to them. After all, their sheeple union members will vote as their party bosses direct without ever going to the trouble to think for themselves.

In the end, we moved to a place we both loved from past experience that has a reasonable COL and was about as close to moving back to America as we could find. It's been like a breath of fresh air. We both tried to make a positive difference through our careers and failed so now we can just sit back and watch that which used to be good and sustaining dissolve into the quagmire, shrug our shoulders and live out our lives comfortably.
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