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Old 11-06-2011, 06:45 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,695,918 times
Reputation: 7721

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Snow preparedness is possible to do before hand and it can either be on the back of the government or individuals can depending on their preparedness be a greater part of the solution. With weather event becoming more common in some areas of the country you either prepare or tax/pay your self into oblivion letting institutions do it for you. How much more can utilities in the North East continue to bear in making repairs before they need rate hikes that folks can't afford. Something has to give eventually if it continues. Will those rate hikes be equally distributed or will somehow an attempt be made to make some pay more of the burden while others skate either by government subsidy (taxation) or another strategy. Someone will have to pay the piper. Road crews are expensive especially when contracted elsewhere.
I hate to tell you this, but the expenses of repairing the electric grid after a storm are mostly borne by FEMA and other government agencies. If it were up to just the utilities alone, not much would get done in a timely fashion as most don't have the resources to fix that much broken, nor the money. Outside help has to be summoned and somebody has to pay for that. The same is true for debris removal. Remember those limbs you piled up at the curb after Irene? Who do you think paid for their removal?

As for snow removal? You're right! We could dispense with all those snow plows and salt shakers parked over there at the county maintenance barn because we can do it ourselves, without any help from government. Why....I expect it wouldn't take the citizens of New Jersey more than all winter to shovel the snow off the Garden State Parkway.
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Old 11-06-2011, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 19,020,878 times
Reputation: 15649
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Remember my reason for the thread is to put all of this in the context of retirement planning and it is very difficult for many to build their retirement resources if government keeps coming up with a new tax to from them. We are approaching crisis of folks reaching their senior years without the adequate resources to survive. We can read that in threads and news stories daily. Will we let them keep more of their money to prepare or will we need massive tax increases to support those who have worked and contributed all their lives or do we make choices about who to support and who not to and for what reason.
Look, you raise legitimate argument and your point of view is logical, as some other POVs are. I do not disagree with what you say; perhaps it's just that I see the enormous complexity (and ironies) of the problem especially in regard to average retirees.

Some 45% of us do not pay fed tax. Do you not think that this trickles down with enormous negative impact to the states? Why should the average American retiree be forced to bear exponentially increasing state tax (in the form of retirement tax or property tax) in their elder years? No, this is not sustainable and it is unjust. Read back to the first sentence of this paragraph for a clue to an answer.
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Old 11-06-2011, 07:03 AM
 
Location: Kenmore, WA
7,492 posts, read 6,489,745 times
Reputation: 10932
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
New Words-Ineptocracy | Points and Figures...a new word making its way into thinking and commentary on our current society.
.... how we plan our retirement and how government allows us the freedom to plan and succeed as individuals. ....does it take a system of food distribution voted on by all regardless of how much they grew?

Can a society of decreasing producers continue without rethinking its approach. This is meant to be harsh but changing demographics are forcing us to think about much we currently do and can be found in discussions about many topics including retirement. Can we continue on a path where those who produce the most retirement wealth are asked to give more of it away and those who produce less are making the decisions about the distribution? Food for thought!
The success of our individuals has historically been shared with the community, at a much greater level than it is today. And not all of our individuals contribute their talents in the same way, but even those with intrinsic values still contribute. What I view as sad is how in today's world we seem to put a dollar value on everything, and then treat people as though they were only worth that dollar.

We are all people of equal value, and some of us have talents that provide market value, and others give to their communities in other ways. What is wrong with our present social system is that wealth is distributed to people that are not contributing, and further, they are not allowed to contribute. This reduces their sense of self-worth, as well as societies' views of their worth.

We need to start putting everyone's talents to productive use, regardless of their market value, and giving those productive outlets a place in our market, in exchange for goods and services not obtainable by monetary earnings on the market.

Put into an example, a garbage collector's services may not be valued as much as a school administrator's or a CEO's, but when they don't pick up the trash we've all got a problem. If a CEO or SA were to go "on strike" no one would blink.

People that cannot find jobs should still be put to work doing tasks that they are capable of doing -- regardless of their age range. Everywhere we look there are jobs to do that we cannot afford to pay people to do, yet there are welfare recipients around us collecting checks that would lose their assistance if they were to perform paying work.

If we put these people to work doing work they are capable of doing and that needs to be done, they would achieve working experience that just might help them find paying jobs -- as well as improve their self images and their image in the community.

Just an idea....
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:04 AM
 
9,238 posts, read 9,307,990 times
Reputation: 28963
The OP's opinion seems based on a premise. That premise is that there are exactly two groups of people in society.

The first group is hard working and industrious. It got where it did purely because of effort. Matters like timing, racial discrimination, sexual discrimination, or good health played little or no role in the success or good fortune of this group. This group was able to save and supposedly now lives in fear of seeing its savings "taxed away" by a spendthrift and ruinous government.

The second group had all the advantages that the first group did, but chose to squander them. This group is composed of people who hate work, wanted to play all their lives, and made a deliberate decision to not put anything aside for retirement. Now, as old age approaches this group is trying to use both fair means and foul to take the money from the first group to subsidize their own lazy lifestyle.

This sounds more like a fable or a thirty minute t.v. show than real life.

The people coming down the pike are not in as good financial shape for retirement as your generation for a lot of reasons. Perhaps, the one that is most commonly ignored one is the lack of good jobs that include defined retirement benefit plans as part of the compensation package. These have been totally eliminated in over half the workplaces in this country during the last thirty years. This wasn't much of an issue for people sixty and older. When you were in the workforce, such jobs existed in relative abundance.

Oh you can make all the arguments: "We need to cut government spending". "These people need to learn to save". "Financial planning isn't taught in the schools".

The problem is almost all those young people look around and they see the baby boomers and those older than them retiring on nice comfortable pensions. They see the way that we have decimated Medicare by our unwillingness to raise taxes to pay for it, to ration the care that is least necessary and most expensive, and what I will call our "general irresponsibility" as a group. Its a poor example, we've set. Much of the ineptness is our own.

My wife works for local government. She is fortunate enough to have one of the few remaining defined benefit plans left in this area. That plus our social security, plus some limited savings, plus a 401K plan that has never come through as promised guarantees we'll have a decent retirement. Guess what? They have now changed the system and all the young people (the new hires) aren't going to get nearly as generous a retirement. Most of their retirement will be based on 401K and only a small percentage will be a defined benefit.
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:15 AM
 
29,884 posts, read 34,945,207 times
Reputation: 11793
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
I hate to tell you this, but the expenses of repairing the electric grid after a storm are mostly borne by FEMA and other government agencies. If it were up to just the utilities alone, not much would get done in a timely fashion as most don't have the resources to fix that much broken, nor the money. Outside help has to be summoned and somebody has to pay for that. The same is true for debris removal. Remember those limbs you piled up at the curb after Irene? Who do you think paid for their removal?

As for snow removal? You're right! We could dispense with all those snow plows and salt shakers parked over there at the county maintenance barn because we can do it ourselves, without any help from government. Why....I expect it wouldn't take the citizens of New Jersey more than all winter to shovel the snow off the Garden State Parkway.
And FEMA ran out of money once this year and are we on pace for it to happen again? Money only comes in after the area is declared a disaster area etc etc etc. Preventative medicine like cutting down trees and burying lines underground are going to hit people in their bills or the can have some of the trees cut down themselves. Some body is paying and if it is FEMA it means taxation.
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:22 AM
 
29,884 posts, read 34,945,207 times
Reputation: 11793
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The OP's opinion seems based on a premise. That premise is that there are exactly two groups of people in society.

The first group is hard working and industrious. It got where it did purely because of effort. Matters like timing, racial discrimination, sexual discrimination, or good health played little or no role in the success or good fortune of this group. This group was able to save and supposedly now lives in fear of seeing its savings "taxed away" by a spendthrift and ruinous government.

The second group had all the advantages that the first group did, but chose to squander them. This group is composed of people who hate work, wanted to play all their lives, and made a deliberate decision to not put anything aside for retirement. Now, as old age approaches this group is trying to use both fair means and foul to take the money from the first group to subsidize their own lazy lifestyle.

This sounds more like a fable or a thirty minute t.v. show than real life.

The people coming down the pike are not in as good financial shape for retirement as your generation for a lot of reasons. Perhaps, the one that is most commonly ignored one is the lack of good jobs that include defined retirement benefit plans as part of the compensation package. These have been totally eliminated in over half the workplaces in this country during the last thirty years. This wasn't much of an issue for people sixty and older. When you were in the workforce, such jobs existed in relative abundance.

Oh you can make all the arguments: "We need to cut government spending". "These people need to learn to save". "Financial planning isn't taught in the schools".

The problem is almost all those young people look around and they see the baby boomers and those older than them retiring on nice comfortable pensions. They see the way that we have decimated Medicare by our unwillingness to raise taxes to pay for it, to ration the care that is least necessary and most expensive, and what I will call our "general irresponsibility" as a group. Its a poor example, we've set. Much of the ineptness is our own.

My wife works for local government. She is fortunate enough to have one of the few remaining defined benefit plans left in this area. That plus our social security, plus some limited savings, plus a 401K plan that has never come through as promised guarantees we'll have a decent retirement. Guess what? They have now changed the system and all the young people (the new hires) aren't going to get nearly as generous a retirement. Most of their retirement will be based on 401K and only a small percentage will be a defined benefit.
No the OP realizes what you are saying and is advocating for you as you plan for YOUR retirement. Public pensions are in trouble because government is having to sustain more and more people who for multiple years are unwilling/unable to do it for themselves. Drugs, crime and illegitimate children are creating competition for the revenues that could be use for the benefits of public employees. One of the reasons your 401K isn't coming through is because any low risk investment is crippled by current government policy to keep interest rates low to help you know who. People who made poor decisions about how much house they could afford etc etc. The low interest rate environment is helping people pay debt off at the expense of saving. Believe me I understand the plight of public pensions and I also understand the competition for the limited revenues available to government. Remember the low interest rate environment and now the new housing plan will lower interst rates and lower the return public pension trust funds earn thus creating more pressure to reduce public pensions. I am on your side and thus my post. Just think the challenge of a state government in allocating funds between prisons/pensions, welfare/pension, failing schools/pensions etc etc etc. Low interest rates don't help pensions or individuals get a decent return on investment. Just look at how bond yields are down and bank accounts are paying nothing. It is all a result of the continuing need to prop up decisions made by individuals and groups previously. That would include corporations bailed out for bad decisions. Whether those bail outs were good or bad consider the impact on retirement planning as we attempt to recover. With Fannie and Freddie holding so many mortgages backed by the government will we ever see a recovery to a more retirement planning investment environment. Yes your generation is behind the 8 ball in many ways and government may be twirling the ball keeping many of you behind it. The creation of jobs is another topic of valid discussion but perhaps not as related to the reasons for policies that might be restricting them as the direction of this thread. Some might suggest that increased taxation whether it be at the local, state or federal level is a deterrent to job creation. Some might even suggest that some companies large and small have been known to relocate to tax friendly states just like people. there are states creating jobs while others are losing them.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/149072/En...-Struggle.aspx
Quote:
Energy States Lead in Job Creation, Financial States Struggle
The finance states of the Northeast and housing states of the West have the worst job market
s

http://timiacono.com/index.php/2011/...state-in-2011/

Quote:
Other than categorizing them as “commodity states” and noting they rank 8th and 10th, respectively, there is no further discussion about job growth in the deep South, so, it will remain a mystery. I can’t think of anything other than tobacco, though I don’t claim to know much about the region. Anyone?
The above question is from the link and was referring to Georgia and South Carolina. I wonder if being tax friendly is a possibility?

http://www.money-zine.com/Financial-...iendly-States/

the above link rates states for both individual and business tax friendliness.

Last edited by TuborgP; 11-06-2011 at 09:01 AM..
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:23 AM
 
29,884 posts, read 34,945,207 times
Reputation: 11793
Quote:
Originally Posted by LookinForMayberry View Post
The success of our individuals has historically been shared with the community, at a much greater level than it is today. And not all of our individuals contribute their talents in the same way, but even those with intrinsic values still contribute. What I view as sad is how in today's world we seem to put a dollar value on everything, and then treat people as though they were only worth that dollar.

We are all people of equal value, and some of us have talents that provide market value, and others give to their communities in other ways. What is wrong with our present social system is that wealth is distributed to people that are not contributing, and further, they are not allowed to contribute. This reduces their sense of self-worth, as well as societies' views of their worth.

We need to start putting everyone's talents to productive use, regardless of their market value, and giving those productive outlets a place in our market, in exchange for goods and services not obtainable by monetary earnings on the market.

Put into an example, a garbage collector's services may not be valued as much as a school administrator's or a CEO's, but when they don't pick up the trash we've all got a problem. If a CEO or SA were to go "on strike" no one would blink.

People that cannot find jobs should still be put to work doing tasks that they are capable of doing -- regardless of their age range. Everywhere we look there are jobs to do that we cannot afford to pay people to do, yet there are welfare recipients around us collecting checks that would lose their assistance if they were to perform paying work.

If we put these people to work doing work they are capable of doing and that needs to be done, they would achieve working experience that just might help them find paying jobs -- as well as improve their self images and their image in the community.

Just an idea....
A good idea but there are questions about substance abuse, criminal behavior and day care cost.
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:37 AM
 
29,884 posts, read 34,945,207 times
Reputation: 11793
Quote:
The problem is almost all those young people look around and they see the baby boomers and those older than them retiring on nice comfortable pensions. They see the way that we have decimated Medicare by our unwillingness to raise taxes to pay for it, to ration the care that is least necessary and most expensive, and what I will call our "general irresponsibility" as a group. Its a poor example, we've set. Much of the ineptness is our own.
Does that contribute to Ineptocracy?
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
16,133 posts, read 20,857,257 times
Reputation: 8293
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
I understand your post but I am to consumed by the Euro zone Debt crisis to respond beyond this.
The bankers who made these investments want another bailout. I remember in the 1970s when Citibank was crying bailout because Argentina went under. Boo Hoo, why is it that their mistakes become ours? The sun will rise and the grass will grow without them
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:59 AM
 
29,884 posts, read 34,945,207 times
Reputation: 11793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boompa View Post
The bankers who made these investments want another bailout. I remember in the 1970s when Citibank was crying bailout because Argentina went under. Boo Hoo, why is it that their mistakes become ours? The sun will rise and the grass will grow without them
The sad reality is these were not investments in the private sector of these countries but in their sovereign debt. Their governments can't survive without being able to borrow and neither can ours. One of the reasons to depress interest rates is to keep government borrowing down and to make it easier to roll over old debt.That may help government to spend but not individuals young or old to grown their retirement nest egg.
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