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I'm quite aware we have a large segment of unwed mothers and people who have little desire to work in this country. I don't think you mean to come across as patronizing, Robyn, but I do get out. I've traveled to 46 states and 13 foreign countries.
These people are not in the majority though. I think we notice them more than others because of their color and physical characteristics. I hesitate to stereotype. Mormons have been subject to some cruel stereotypes over the years and so have Jews.
There's a lot of people out of work right now. My son is one of them. He fills out applications every day for work. He's had one unsuccessful interview in six weeks. He's not lazy. Nor is he playing the system.
I agree benefits need to be limited to those receiving public assistance. I would like to see unwed mothers being given more than just "encouragement" to place children for adoption. I'd like to see them get a genuine push. Maybe it would make more sense for society to pay them to place children for adoption than to keep and raise them?
All this dwelling on "welfare bums" though often causes us to overlook worse transgressions. Medicare and Medicaid are being defrauded to the tune of billions of dollars annually by slick white collar con artists. I think of all the "banksters" who worked for Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, and Goldman Sachs.
I frequently hear discussions about what should be done about bums on welfare. I seldom hear any real ideas to stop those committing white collar fraud. Maybe there's some truth to the idea that big crooks get "big justice" and little crooks get "little justice"? I know we had fewer problems in this country when we had a more equitable distribution of income.
Sorry Mark - I didn't mean to patronize you. It was - as I reckon you suspect - more or less a rhetorical point.
Not a majority yet. And I'm not dealing with stereotypes. Numbers are numbers. Over 75% of black kids are born illegitimate today. And with white kids - it's getting closer to 50% every day. These are well beyond crisis levels IMO - like a BP reading of 280/180! And why would these mothers put their kids up for adoption? They're meal tickets (perhaps some mothers aren't in this category - but I think most are).
And just because I dislike this - it doesn't mean that I am any fan of bailing out what you call "banksters" - or not cracking down with a baseball bat on Medicare/Medicaid fraud. We are currently borrowing 40 cents of every dollar the federal government is spending. For me - this isn't an "either/or" test - it's more like "pick as many of the following 10 choices or so that you agree with".
FWIW - south Florida is the Medicare fraud capital of the US. And a defendant just got a 50 year sentence for Medicare fraud:
Judge sends Medicare offender to prison for 50 years - Miami-Dade - MiamiHerald.com (http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/16/2410464/judge-sends-medicare-offender.html - broken link)
I don't know if it will be a deterrent - but it can't hurt .
As for real "bums" - street bums - well most are men with all kinds of psychological disorders - drug addictions - etc. But after the O'Connor case in the 70's:
These people can no longer be institutionalized involuntarily - even for useful treatment - unless they're a danger to themselves or others. Which is why - in downtown JAX - the central park in the city is the home to bums - and not a place where decent folks would take their children.
I am sorry to hear about your son. I am no expert when it comes to younger people getting work these days. But I know a few recent college grads - and those who have gotten jobs have been willing to move just about anywhere in the US to get them (and even then - like in the case of my niece - who got a job in Manhattan - the pay is far less than it costs her to live there - and my brother subsidizes her). Robyn
What government benefits? AFDC? Food stamps? Medicaid? Unemployment insurance? WIC? SCHIP? State and local too, or just federal?
All of the above. But that is putting the cart BEFORE the horse. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Demonstrate a pattern of irresponsibility, you lose the right to that privilege. Sort of like drunk driving. If you're a menace on the road, we take away your license. Unrestrained breeding by irresponsible people - whether they are white, black, yellow, green, purple or polka dot, is extremely detrimental generationally and drags a society down, down. Literacy and scholastic achievement is ever dropping because the people producing these students are themselves barely literate and lack discipline and goal setting. Like quoted above, they plan for Saturday night, if that, not for three generations. This form of irresponsibility was never enabled when this country was founded. You worked or you starved. In those days without birth control, the kids worked too, or they got the switch, or they starved or were disowned. They were not bailed out generation after generation after generation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
I agree benefits need to be limited to those receiving public assistance. I would like to see unwed mothers being given more than just "encouragement" to place children for adoption. I'd like to see them get a genuine push. Maybe it would make more sense for society to pay them to place children for adoption than to keep and raise them?
There are not enough responsible families willing to take in these kids who are often abused, need serious psychological care, have serious genetic disabilities, sickness, mentally retarded. Mothers often drug addicts or have AIDS, kids sick from the day they're born. This is not practical in the real world where I live.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit
You mean forced sterilization, like they used to do in Nazi Germany?
A silly generalization and a mixing of metaphors if you are talking about Eugenics. We are talking about ANYONE (any color, any race) who exhibits a repeated and egregious pattern of irresponsible reproduction and depends on society to pay their and their kids way, not to mention try to educate them when they are improperly fed or cared for because the 'mother' is a drug addict or off for days at a time with the boyfriend du jour leaving the kids to fend for themselves, not to mention house these parents and eventually their children in the jails.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit
Nothing like a little eugenics to illustrate this great American ideal, is there?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Unless, of course, your life, liberty and/or pursuit of happiness might indirectly cost me a few bucks or I just get pizzed off looking at you.
Again, mixing metaphors. The intent when that phrase was written was that people would not be discriminated against because of their religion. Back in the day, premarital sex was a crime. Very smart. Clearly, pregnancy out of wedlock has created a entire sub-class which society now needs to support, but which class commits the majority of the crimes in this country.
Tell ya' what. Why don't you and the wife take in a few of these poor, underprivileged kids and try to make a difference in their lives. I knew some upper middle class people with a stay-at-home mother who did and gave it up. One of these kids (clearly abused) tried to burn down their house. My son and daughter-in-law have no children. I've suggested they consider adoption or foster children. She is a teacher and absolutely refuses. The problems would be horrific in her opinion.
Everyone in this country has the right to equal opportunity. That is a privilege. You intentionally and irresponsibly abuse that privilege, you lose it.
I'm sure you've raised your kids to be responsible and plan ahead. This is not rocket science.
Since federal expenditures during disaster's involve so many agencies and departments, about the best I can do is give you a good starting point for doing research on your own...
I sometimes spend a fair amount of time here doing some research to try to make sure that what I'm saying is right (or at least supported by a reputable source or two). If you're not willing to do the same - well all I can say is you don't sound very scientific to me (you said you were a scientist).
And anyone who isn't willing to spend a few minutes looking up some support for a statement is pretty much on my unofficial ignore list. Robyn
I could care less about the Declaration of Independence. It is irrelevant as no one in our nation has the right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." I do, however, care about the rights found in the U.S. Constitution.
You do know, of course, that the Constitution embodies the principles found in the DOI?
What constitutional rights are these people violating? How?
Quote:
Yes, this is off topic, but Moderator - He/she started it!
I sometimes spend a fair amount of time here doing some research to try to make sure that what I'm saying is right (or at least supported by a reputable source or two). If you're not willing to do the same - well all I can I can say is you don't sound very scientific to me (you said you were a scientist). Robyn
That shouldn't be surprising as I'm not a scientist. I'm a retired truck driver.
The information is out there and I've given you a decent starting place. That's about it from here.
All of the above. But that is putting the cart BEFORE the horse. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Demonstrate a pattern of irresponsibility, you lose the right to that privilege. Sort of like drunk driving. If you're a menace on the road, we take away your license. Unrestrained breeding by irresponsible people - whether they are white, black, yellow, green, purple or polka dot, is extremely detrimental generationally and drags a society down, down. Literacy and scholastic achievement is ever dropping because the people producing these students are themselves barely literate and lack discipline and goal setting. Like quoted above, they plan for Saturday night, if that, not for three generations. This form of irresponsibility was never enabled when this country was founded. You worked or you starved. In those days without birth control, the kids worked too, or they got the switch, or they starved or were disowned. They were not bailed out generation after generation after generation.
There are not enough responsible families willing to take in these kids who are often abused, need serious psychological care, have serious genetic disabilities, sickness, mentally retarded. Mothers often drug addicts or have AIDS, kids sick from the day they're born. This is not practical in the real world where I live.
A silly generalization and a mixing of metaphors if you are talking about Eugenics. We are talking about ANYONE (any color, any race) who exhibits a repeated and egregious pattern of irresponsible reproduction and depends on society to pay their and their kids way, not to mention try to educate them when they are improperly fed or cared for because the 'mother' is a drug addict or off for days at a time with the boyfriend du jour leaving the kids to fend for themselves, not to mention house these parents and eventually their children in the jails.
Again, mixing metaphors. The intent when that phrase was written was that people would not be discriminated against because of their religion. Back in the day, premarital sex was a crime. Very smart. Clearly, pregnancy out of wedlock has created a entire sub-class which society now needs to support, but which class commits the majority of the crimes in this country.
Tell ya' what. Why don't you and the wife take in a few of these poor, underprivileged kids and try to make a difference in their lives. I knew some upper middle class people with a stay-at-home mother who did and gave it up. One of these kids (clearly abused) tried to burn down their house. My son and daughter-in-law have no children. I've suggested they consider adoption or foster children. She is a teacher and absolutely refuses. The problems would be horrific in her opinion.
Everyone in this country has the right to equal opportunity. That is a privilege. You intentionally and irresponsibly abuse that privilege, you lose it.
I'm sure you've raised your kids to be responsible and plan ahead. This is not rocket science.
So, what's your solution? Let 'em literally starve to death, innocent kids and all? Will you step over the bodies, or use your tax dollars to take them away and bury them? Let them mingle with your kids at Walmart or in school while carrying untreated communicable diseases? Let 'em bleed to death on the street after a car wreck, while the more "decent, responsible" folks get carted off in a tax-payer funded, fire department ambulance? Or, kick 'em out of school and let 'em grow up not only malnourished and disadvantaged, but uneducated too, not qualified for any job?
May I ask which is more important to you and why? Human beings or your money?
Just to bring the thread back to its original idea, let me ask you a question:
You're going into your favorite restaurant, along with your kids or grandkids. You're following a little old lady using a walker and carrying an oxygen machine. Suddenly, she keels over right in front of you, gasping for breath.
Like any decent person, you rush forward and ask her, "What's wrong?"
She says, "I think I'm having another heart attack. Call an ambulance, please!"
Will you really lean over and say, "Uh...do you have any health insurance, or can you pay for the emergency room?"
"I'm on Medicare," she says.
"Oh," you respond. "Sorry. I really don't want my tax dollars used to save your old, unproductive life. You should've made provisions for your old age before now."
What will you say to your kids?
"Step around her. Let that be a lesson for you about wasting your life and expecting hard-working people to support you when you get old."
All of the above. But that is putting the cart BEFORE the horse. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Demonstrate a pattern of irresponsibility, you lose the right to that privilege. Sort of like drunk driving. If you're a menace on the road, we take away your license. Unrestrained breeding by irresponsible people - whether they are white, black, yellow, green, purple or polka dot, is extremely detrimental generationally and drags a society down, down. Literacy and scholastic achievement is ever dropping because the people producing these students are themselves barely literate and lack discipline and goal setting. Like quoted above, they plan for Saturday night, if that, not for three generations. This form of irresponsibility was never enabled when this country was founded. You worked or you starved. In those days without birth control, the kids worked too, or they got the switch, or they starved or were disowned. They were not bailed out generation after generation after generation...
You expressed very clearly what a lot of people think.
Over 75% of black kids are born illegitimate today. And with white kids - it's getting closer to 50% every day. These are well beyond crisis levels IMO - like a BP reading of 280/180! And why would these mothers put their kids up for adoption? They're meal tickets (perhaps some mothers aren't in this category - but I think most are).
Perhaps you should look up the official statistics on the CDC web site. They're easily available at:
I think you'll find that your numbers aren't even close to reality. I'm not sure where you pulled them from but I'm pretty sure it's someplace dark. Illegitimate birth rates have been dropping since 1991 across the board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55
I sometimes spend a fair amount of time here doing some research to try to make sure that what I'm saying is right (or at least supported by a reputable source or two). If you're not willing to do the same - well all I can say is you don't sound very scientific to me (you said you were a scientist).
And anyone who isn't willing to spend a few minutes looking up some support for a statement is pretty much on my unofficial ignore list. Robyn
We've got to bail out the banks and the people who spent over their heads - and everyone else. Everyone who wasn't prudent. Pisses me off. Robyn
I saw parts of it when aired and saw the whole thought now. It is the reason I started this thread listening to CNBC and Bloomberg daily. We have a problem in this society and we are on a path to make those who should be secure something else.
You do know, of course, that the Constitution embodies the principles found in the DOI?
What constitutional rights are these people violating? How?
Stillkit,
Read this carefully. I studied Constitutional Law, but do not pretend to be an expert in Constitutional Law. Forget the Declaration of Independence stuff. Look at the Constitution. In general, the Supreme Court has found that persons have a fundamental right to procreate. The Supreme Court did not find that forced sterilization is always unconstitutional but nevertheless imposed such severe restrictions that states have not imposed sterilization in decades.
I did not state that persons receiving public benefits should be sterilized. I did not state that persons receiving benefits were violating the Constitution. You have me pegged incorrectly. For God's sake, I was a Public Benefits Attorney. I helped the poor (and sometimes middle class) get public benefits, i.e., TCA, FS, Child Care Vouchers, Medical Assistance and Section 8. I am not the bigot/racist on this board.
Frequently the folks who rail against recipients of public benefits have no clue of the eligibility requirements. They are usually unaware that the recipients (with few exceptions) must work and that benefits are limited to 5 years or less. This requirement was imposed during the Clinton administration. I've also noticed that the same folks who rail against the welfare class are often the first in line to ask for Medical Assistance when they have determined that their dear Mother or Father "needs" to go into a nursing home.
You will notice that I have not posted in this thread other than to advise you that Americans have also been guilty of systemic sterilization. I did not respond directly to the argument because, IMHO, it's a dumb, useless argument. I have learned over the years that you cannot change peoples' minds when they would prefer to remain ignorant. Examples would include one of my sisters, a nurse, who believes everyone can work, regardless of disability. My brother believes that America is (was) not only the greatest place on earth, but that we should drop a nuclear bomb on any country that mistakenly disagrees with that assertion. Remember, even highly educated people can be ignorant. But, in this particular case, that's not me.
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