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Old 11-13-2011, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,953,845 times
Reputation: 6717

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Quote:
Originally Posted by songbird52 View Post
Telling someone they have a materialist philosophy is a personal attack? But you think it's ok for them to call me an idiot? I guess you don't like to know the truth about the medical and drug industries. They are causing serious damage to our society and all of us are paying for it.
Actually you called me a "materialist reductionist". And even after reading this:

Materialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't understand at all what it is - or whether I should be insulted . Note that I am in general a pretty pragmatic person who doesn't much care about labels.

Doubt my brother the doctor would understand it either. After many years of clinical practice - he now works for a large drug company. His primary area of work is drugs that are designed to make the lives of people with certain end stage diseases a little easier.

BTW - I shouldn't have called you an idiot. And I apologize for that. I just should have said something like "I think you're plain wrong". But I had an unfortunate run in at a bike store yesterday with a woman who refuses to participate in the National MS bike runs because she said - more or less - that the National MS Society and the drug companies engaged in MS research were all a bunch of money-hungry liars - and that MS could easily be cured by changing one's diet. She claimed to have seen such miracles. You know - people going from wheelchairs to becoming triathletes <rolling eyes>. Just FWIW - in case you don't know anything about MS (don't expect you to) - the most common form in younger people is relapsing-remitting - in which patients have "attacks" but can often get pretty much back to normal when the attacks are over. That was the course of my husband's MS for about 20 years.

Anyway - back to arguing about medicine . Robyn
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Old 11-13-2011, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,953,845 times
Reputation: 6717
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Let me give you a reverse story about MY Mom.

She only smoked for a few years back in the 50's, ate right and walked a mile or more just about every day. At the age of 82, she was taking no medications at all and, though she'd had some memory loss and an increasing tendency to panic over the least little thing, she was in as perfect health as one can be at that age. She lived alone in her own house with few problems.

Then, she came down with something similar to the flu and went to the doctor. A chest X-ray was ordered and the doc thought it showed fluid build up around her heart, so she put her in the hospital and started her on the old reliable drug for such things...Lasix. It's what nearly all doctors would do for indications of congestive heart failure.

Within 12 hours, she suffered a massive stroke which literally killed about half of the left side of her brain. Today, she's lost the use of her right arm and right leg, is unable to stand, sit without being propped up, change her own clothes, bathe herself or doing just about anything but eat. She did recover her ability to speak and some vision in her right eye, but that's about all. She's now in a rest home, which costs her about $4200 per month out of her own money and will continue to do so until she's flat broke.

Subsequent tests found no evidence of congestive heart failure or even a significant amount of plaque build up in her arteries, with the sole exception of where the stroke occurred. The possibility of a stroke is one of the side effects of Lasix and my brothers and I are pretty sure that's what caused it. Now, her list of medicines is about as long as my arm and we have to keep a close eye on it because every time she sees a doctor for anything, or the rest home doctor comes around, some other drug is added for some reason or another. It's like she can't get close to a doctor without having something prescribed for some condition, to prevent something, or to offset the side effects of something else. It's madness.

The point is that modern medicine, with doctor's simply doing what they've been trained to do, has reduced a vibrant, alive, fully-functional, independent old woman into a nearly helpless and confused, wheel-chair bound woman totally dependent upon others for her very survival, a woman who went from having a brilliant mind, a former school teacher who wrote and read all the time, to one whose thought processes now run no farther than eating, pooping and going to bed. That's what's left of her life and that's all it will be until she dies.
So if you and your brothers are so sure the docs screwed up - have you consulted a medical malpractice lawyer? Did your mother ever have a carotid ultrasound (maybe she was a "stoke" waiting to happen)?

FWIW - having watched 4 parents age - and 3 die - we've observed a big difference between "junior seniors" - 65 --> 80 - and "senior seniors" - those over 80. The sh** doesn't always hit the fan when someone passes that line over 80. But - for many people - it does. For my father (and his parents and his sibs - great genes in that family) - it started when he got to be about 90. Nothing very serious. Just deterioration in joints/spine (and associated pain) - ability to walk - etc. Heck - he has no padding on his fingers left - and can't button buttons. Robyn
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Old 11-13-2011, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Next stop Antarctica
1,799 posts, read 2,432,895 times
Reputation: 2075
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
My health CARE is primarily my responsibility. My HEALTH is totally in God's hands, as is the case with everyone else. We are really only fooling ourselves if we think we can control our own future. I take Jesus at His word when He said to give no thought to tomorrow or to our bodies, but to leave that with God. I also know that in a passage from Revelations pertaining to the end days, we find this: "..for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." (Rev. 18: 23) That word translated as "sorceries" is the Greek word Pharmakeia, from which, of course, we get the word pharmacy. It may mean nothing to you, but to me it's entirely plausible because so many people are taking so many drugs.

Medicines in general: I have a great reluctance to use any medicines or drugs of any kind that have been on the market for less than 30 years. Back during the Reagan years, drug companies were allowed to start marketing new drugs after doing only a required amount of preliminary testing. The reason, of course, was profitability. Under the old rules, testing had to be more comprehensive and lasted longer, meaning the drug companies could not begin making a return on their investments in research soon enough to suit them. Congress conveniently let them start marketing new drugs before they are fully tested, in effect using US as the long-term guinea pigs. That's how we've come to have so many recalled drugs, like Vioxx or whatever, long after they've been damaging people's health or even killing them. I guess the drug companies, and the government, believes the fast profit outweighs the risk of lawsuits down the road. In any case, it seems that far too many new "miracle" drugs end up being harmful after millions have used them, so I just won't take them. Just this week, I saw my first lawyer commercial targeting users of Zoloft and a couple of other seratonin uptake inhibitors which millions are using. I guess those are next.
I have memories of a dear friend who refused to have chemotherapy and died a premature death from breast cancer and secondaries, her family and friends were devastated by her decision,i think it was a selfish act on her part when she could have been alive today and enjoying her family. God doesn't make, decisions we do.
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Old 11-13-2011, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,953,845 times
Reputation: 6717
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
No, probably not. Then again, I'm not at all sure I'd even undergo treatment. Much would depend upon how much I would suffer and what quality of life I'd be likely to have afterwards. As you probably know, chemotherapy amounts to little more than bringing the body as close to death as possible to kill the cancer cells (my definition) and the effects on other, non-cancerous cells can be quite extreme, often leading to follow-on problems which can be crippling.

Since I've already lived a full and interesting life, and am certain where I'm going when I die, I see little reason to prolong life simply to prolong it. If it's not worth living, I'll just take my cancer and a good-sized prescription for morphine home and die on my own front porch. I'm 62 years old. I'll die soon anyhow, so what difference does a few more years make?
I'm kind of in your camp. When I get to the bridge - I'll see what it looks like - and whether I want to try to cross it. Robyn
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Old 11-13-2011, 03:49 PM
 
48 posts, read 38,772 times
Reputation: 74
Robyn55,

There are no simple answers for the world's problems, including the serious diseases. I never claim that holistic medicine has cures. However, I do believe that some of the most common diseases can be prevented by having a sensible lifestyle. Americans in general have been brainwashed to have blind faith in the medical and drug industries, often with tragic results.

If you looked objectively at the facts, you would have to see that certain drugs are over-prescribed and harmful. It is natural for people to want to have faith in something miraculous, and now days it's usually modern medicine. But it's a mistake.

Modern medicine is good for certain things, such as bacterial infections. And surgical and diagnostic technology has advanced greatly. But for anything else we are still in the dark.

It might be depressing for most Americans if they were aware of the limitations of modern medicine. But I think it's better to see the truth and recognize that we are responsible for our own health.
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Old 11-13-2011, 03:53 PM
 
48 posts, read 38,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cushla View Post
I have memories of a dear friend who refused to have chemotherapy and died a premature death from breast cancer and secondaries, her family and friends were devastated by her decision,i think it was a selfish act on her part when she could have been alive today and enjoying her family. God doesn't make, decisions we do.
You have no idea if she could have been alive today. As far as I know, the evidence shows that chemotherapy is not usually effective for breast cancer. Chemotherapy is often used in cases where it is unlikely to have any benefit. That's because they have no good treatments for most cancer, but want patients to feel something is being done.
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Old 11-13-2011, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,953,845 times
Reputation: 6717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
Agree 100%. Especially the Dr Oz part. His information is generalized and could be harmful for some people. I and others have called him on his touting of vitamin D for everyone but we have gotten blown off by his staff. I just hope no one has been harmed by his advice.

Regarding taking drugs. There is so much information out there today, a patient can and should read up on whatever is prescribed and ask questions of a doctor if there are doubts or just for the sake of learning. There is no reason for anyone to just follow directions blindly. If a doctor does not want patients asking questions, I don't think I would want to continue on seeing him.

Although vitamins and herbs and the like, and I take some myself, are "natural" they can cause just as many side effects as synthetic drugs if taken improperly.

For example, a synthetic statin drug caused me to have severe muscle cramps. So I read up on the subject and switched to Red Rice Yeast for my cholesterol. RRY can also cause muscle cramps because it is a statin but by taking it with CoQ10 I have avoided the cramps and my cholesterol is now, as my doctor says, "awesome." She was with me every step of the way.

Eating healthy and exercising are good things but they do not necessarily guarantee a long and healthy life for all people. One should keep an open mind regarding all types of treatment.
Agree 100% back to you . I have many plants in my back yard that are "natural" - but will kill you if you eat them. One of the oldest drugs in the world (and a potentially toxic one at that) - digitalis - is made out of a nice blooming plant called foxglove.

Nothing wrong with eating healthy and exercising - but agree that it is no guarantee of anything. One extremely promising area of medical research now (and I think it will be more important in the future) is the role of genetics. There are some (perhaps many) diseases that could be reduced substantially or perhaps totally eliminated if the people who carried the genes for them didn't have kids (or had kids with spouses who didn't carry the genes for the diseases). For example - a Rabbi won't marry a Jewish couple if they both carry genes for Tay-Sachs (a very bad disease that is pretty much restricted to Jewish people). If black people got tested for sickle cell anemia before they married/had kids - there would probably be a lot less of that. And for white Christians who carry the genes for cystic fibrosis - we could probably wipe that disease off the map with genetic testing before people have kids. Perhaps ditto with more common things like cardiac disease - breast cancer (the BRCA genes) - Alzheimer's - etc.

Sometimes I think that good genes are more important than anything you do or don't do yourself. For example - my father's family has great genes for just about everything except orthopedic problems (chassis breaks down) associated with pretty old age. My mother's family has very bad genes for cardiac disease and Alzheimer's. My husband's mother's side of the family has a history of MS. My husband's father side of the family has a history of strokes and colon cancer.

I don't think our lot in life is all "luck of the draw" or healthy life-style habits. And it will be interesting to see what people think when genetic research results in a lot more data points. Robyn
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Old 11-13-2011, 04:26 PM
 
48 posts, read 38,772 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
eating healthy and exercising are good things but they do not necessarily guarantee a long and healthy life for all people. One should keep an open mind regarding all types of treatment.
Of course not! But NOT exercising at all and eating mostly processed food will almost guarantee either a short life, or an old age full of pain and disability.
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Old 11-13-2011, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,953,845 times
Reputation: 6717
Quote:
Originally Posted by 20yrsinBranson View Post
I'd be throwing that SPF50 away. Study: Many Sunscreens May Be Accelerating Cancer

20yrsinBranson
So do I - living in Florida for 40+ years - stay inside all the time - or not use sunscreen? Or whatever? Inquiring minds want to know . FWIW - I have always been lazy about using sunscreen - haven't stayed inside - but have only had one somewhat big somewhat serious skin cancer removed from my face. Cosmetic result was excellent - because I had a good Mohs doc. Something to consider for people who spend time in the sun when they're picking their Medicare plans this year - does your plan cover a Mohs doc in your area (there aren't many of them). Robyn
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Old 11-13-2011, 04:29 PM
 
48 posts, read 38,772 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
it will be interesting to see what people think when genetic research results in a lot more data points.
Medical science has promised all kinds of things that never came about. Genetics is MUCH more complicated than they ever imagined.
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