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Old 11-13-2011, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,745 posts, read 4,218,356 times
Reputation: 6866

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Quote:
Originally Posted by songbird52 View Post
Telling someone they have a materialist philosophy is a personal attack?
It is the way you phrased this..."You have the typical blah blah blah...that is taught in medical school." = You poor ignorant woman.
But you think it's ok for them to call me an idiot?
I expect people to respond to your posts appropriately.
I guess you don't like to know the truth about the medical and drug industries.
Oh dear. I didn't know you were the Bearer of Truth. You do see the irony of this, yes?
They are causing serious damage to our society and all of us are paying for it.
Do I believe drugs are over-prescribed? Yes. Would I take an anti-hypertensive drug for borderline high blood pressure? No. Would I take a statin for borderline elevated cholesterol? No. Would I take an atypical antipsychotic if I were psychotic? Although the side effects are nasty, I would hope so. I have MANY clients who could easily kill themselves or kill others if they were not taking these drugs.
Although I can think of a few people I believe need to be medicated (but apparently are not), I would never actually suggest it. Nor would I suggest they NOT take any medication. Every person has a right to make his or her decision, whether I like it or not. I'd feel horrible if someone stupidly followed my lay opinion and either died or suffered needlessly because I thought I was the "Bearer of Truth."
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Old 11-13-2011, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,932,507 times
Reputation: 6716
Quote:
Originally Posted by songbird52 View Post
...Medical school teaches that the human body starts wearing out in middle age and falls apart without drugs. This is not true, they have no evidence for it. It is just an assumption based on the fact that average longevity has increased. But it increased because now most infants and children survive, probably mostly because of antibiotics.

When people live naturally, they do not die from diabetes and artery disease. They die from accidents and violence and infections, or normal old age. It is not normal for people to be invalids for decades before they did. Well it's normal now, in our society, thanks to the modern medical philosophy.
You *have* been to medical school - right? So you know what's taught there. I am one of 11 cousins. Three are doctors - two are dentists. Some of their kids are our next generation of doctors (including one of my nieces now in medical school).

I think your stats about longevity are about a generation outdated. Antibiotics - while fairly new in the scheme of things - started to be used widely right after WWII - over 60 years ago. There are newer kids on the block that contribute to longevity - like cardiac bypass surgery. And kids even newer than that (like various cancer treatments - we have a "Proton gun" here in JAX).

Also - you can't underestimate the impact of a program like Medicare - which made state of the art high tech medical care affordable for most seniors.

And I have no idea what you mean when you say people die of "normal old age". I do not believe I have ever seen a death certificate stating that as a cause of death. So what does it mean in your opinion? Robyn
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:14 PM
 
48 posts, read 38,728 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
You *have* been to medical school - right? So you know what's taught there. I am one of 11 cousins. Three are doctors - two are dentists. Some of their kids are our next generation of doctors (including one of my nieces now in medical school).

I think your stats about longevity are about a generation outdated. Antibiotics - while fairly new in the scheme of things - started to be used widely right after WWII - over 60 years ago. There are newer kids on the block that contribute to longevity - like cardiac bypass surgery. And kids even newer than that (like various cancer treatments - we have a "Proton gun" here in JAX).

Also - you can't underestimate the impact of a program like Medicare - which made state of the art high tech medical care affordable for most seniors.

And I have no idea what you mean when you say people die of "normal old age". I do not believe I have ever seen a death certificate stating that as a cause of death. So what does it mean in your opinion? Robyn
The body wears out and dies, as we all know. There is usually some diagnosis, but often it's really just old age. But this wearing out does not have to begin in the 60s, or 50s, 40s, or 30s. A person does not have to be disabled by diabetes, artery disease and arthritis.

When I was 30 I had fibromyalgia but didn't know it. I saw a doctor and was told the pain was from old age. I was amazed to hear it then, and even more amazed now that I am 60 and don't have pains. I have heard many other similar stories.

We are self-repairing machines and our bodies try to stay healthy and active if given a chance.

We don't have clean air and water any more and we can't do much about that. But we don't have to spend all waking hours sitting on chairs, and we can eat relatively natural food.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,932,507 times
Reputation: 6716
Quote:
Originally Posted by cushla View Post
I have memories of a dear friend who refused to have chemotherapy and died a premature death from breast cancer and secondaries, her family and friends were devastated by her decision,i think it was a selfish act on her part when she could have been alive today and enjoying her family. God doesn't make, decisions we do.
I wouldn't criticize anyone until I'd walked in her shoes.

About 10 years ago - I had a golf buddy about 10 years younger than I am - who got diagnosed out of the gate with stage 3 breast cancer (turned into stage 4). She had 2 kids < 10. And she gave it the good fight - up to a point - so she could live longer for her kids and her husband. We went to lunch a few times when she was having treatments (chemo and radiation). It was awful. The drugs made her cells act in funny ways - so the skin on her fingers and her feet split open. Her feet were so painful she couldn't walk - she had to use a wheelchair.

Now this woman was one of the most positive chipper women I'd ever met in my whole life. Not to mention that she could drive a golf ball almost 200 yards.

And - at one lunch - she said - I can't take this any more - and I don't think I'm doing my husband and my kids any good letting them see me suffer like this.

A few weeks later - she and her husband threw a really big "good bye" party at a local country club for everyone they knew/had been kind to them during her illness. Then she stopped all treatment - went into hospice - and died. She wasn't even 50.

I will always miss Martha - but think she made the right decision for her - and her family. Her husband remarried within a few years - he had a new wife - and his kids had a new mom. Such is life. It isn't always fair. Robyn
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,699 posts, read 23,668,169 times
Reputation: 35449
It's not just the doctors who are leading the alleged innocent lambs to the slaughter. It's people's own gullibility and stupidity.

People see an ad on TV or hear Dr Oz touting a miracle remedy and they demand they be given some.

Case in point. When I was a health insurance claims adjuster back in the 90's, I had people calling and demanding we pay for their fen-fen; fenfluramine/phentermine, a weight reducing drug. It was not covered because it was originally supposed to be only a last resort drug for those so morbidly obese their lives were at risk. But that didn't stop those who had 10-20 pounds to lose from demanding it.

Our Plans did pay for diet counseling and certain weight loss programs. But the Public wanted the quick fix they saw on TV and magazines. I was cursed at and insulted and had to endure comments like "If I die of high blood pressure do to obesity, it's YOUR fault because you won't pay for this drug."

Then came the heart attacks directly related to this "miracle" drug. The phone calls stopped.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,699 posts, read 23,668,169 times
Reputation: 35449
Quote:
We are self-repairing machines and our bodies try to stay healthy and active if given a chance.

Really? Pray tell, what us the self-repairing mechanism for diseases of unknown etiology like MS or Sarcoidosis or Huntington's Disease?

We don't have clean air and water any more and we can't do much about that. But we don't have to spend all waking hours sitting on chairs, and we can eat relatively natural food.

Peanuts and strawberries are "natural foods" but have been known to make people very sick or kill them.
You are making generalizations here. While it's good to eat food deemed healthy and excercise, it is by far no guarantee one will live to a healthy ripe old age by doing so.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:44 PM
 
48 posts, read 38,728 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
You are making generalizations here. While it's good to eat food deemed healthy and excercise, it is by far no guarantee one will live to a healthy ripe old age by doing so.
How could there possibly be a guarantee for something like that? And where in any of my comments is that implied or stated? I said that it is almost guaranteed that a person will have a short life or an unhealthy old age if they do not take any responsibility for their health, and depend on doctors and drugs.

Most people I know do not make time for exercise. They are too busy, yet have time for watching TV.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:47 PM
 
48 posts, read 38,728 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
Peanuts and strawberries are "natural foods" but have been known to make people very sick or kill them.
So what is your point? That we should eat unnatural food, since it is possible to be killed by natural food? Do you really think that's logical? In general, natural substances are better for us because our bodies evolved over long periods of time in a natural environment. Something cooked up in a test tube is unlikely to be good for us.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:52 PM
 
48 posts, read 38,728 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
It's not just the doctors who are leading the alleged innocent lambs to the slaughter. It's people's own gullibility and stupidity.

People see an ad on TV or hear Dr Oz touting a miracle remedy and they demand they be given some.

Case in point. When I was a health insurance claims adjuster back in the 90's, I had people calling and demanding we pay for their fen-fen; fenfluramine/phentermine, a weight reducing drug. It was not covered because it was originally supposed to be only a last resort drug for those so morbidly obese their lives were at risk. But that didn't stop those who had 10-20 pounds to lose from demanding it.

Our Plans did pay for diet counseling and certain weight loss programs. But the Public wanted the quick fix they saw on TV and magazines. I was cursed at and insulted and had to endure comments like "If I die of high blood pressure do to obesity, it's YOUR fault because you won't pay for this drug."

Then came the heart attacks directly related to this "miracle" drug. The phone calls stopped.
Yes the public has been somehow brainwashed into thinking there is, or soon will be, a pill to cure anything. They see a drug ad on TV -- beautiful actors laughing and dancing ecstatically because of some new drug -- and they want to have it.

And people do not want to exercise. Once you have been sitting for decades it's hard to get motivated to move. So doctors find it easier to give them blood pressure and cholesterol lowering drugs.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:56 PM
 
48 posts, read 38,728 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
We are self-repairing machines and our bodies try to stay healthy and active if given a chance.

Really? Pray tell, what us the self-repairing mechanism for diseases of unknown etiology like MS or Sarcoidosis or Huntington's Disease?
I didn't say we are invulnerable ever-lasting machines that can never break down. Some bodies are genetically defective -- nature is not perfect and no one is claiming that it is. And any of us can get sick at any time. My point was that the body naturally TRIES to maintain its health. It is not like an automobile that starts wearing out the moment it is made. Living creatures DO repair themselves, as much as possible. and this happens automatically. This should be too obvious to mention.
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