very thought provoking article - New York magazine (welfare, grandpa, legal)

[old_cold]

Originally Posted by Escort Rider

Although you didn't ask me, you asked Pilgrim, I think I could do it. I wouldn't do it because it wouldn't be legal. Nor would I enjoy doing it.

Actually, I was only asking Pilgrim about his/her "plan".
And that is only because of "the best laid plans of mice and men" aspect of life.
Many many people declare that they will do this or that but many many more won't have the mental faculty, the means or the opportunity to carry it out.

I welcome anybody elses response to the rest of it.

It brings to mind a book written about a lady developing Alzheimers.
Left herself a 'checklist' made up of questions to read every day with detailed instructions to herself as to how to carry out her own suicide when she could no longer answer the list of questions.
Problem was she began to answer them incorrectly and didn't realize it.

[Umbria]

Originally Posted by newenglandgirl

could have found that "pill" she claimed to have had (we never did, in cleaning out her home). I'd love to know what it was!

That pill was so old it probably turned to dust a long time ago.

[lenora]

Lots of good comments here, especially SCGranny's observations. IMHO, the "fault" lies with the family members, not the health care personnel. Why would family members transport the elder to the emergency room if they didn't expect treatment? It defies common sense, but it's done all the time.

I found the article alarming for several reasons. The author acknowledges that his mother did not want surgery and loudly protested. And yet he and his sister overrode her decision. What's up with that?! Even my demented clients residing in state facilities have the right to refuse treatment. If the physicians are determined to treat a resident who declines treatment, I represent the resident in an administrative and if necessary, a judicial appeal. I realize that the author's mother was not in a state facility, but it still p***** me off that she was not accorded the same rights as my clients. And what's with the author not accepting responsibility for overriding his mother's wishes? I saw nothing in the article that suggests the physicians pushed the kids into consenting treatment for their mother.

It also bothered me that he assumed his mother was not happy and would prefer death over dementia. All of us younger folks tend to believe this. We are projecting our distress and grief over our parent's decline onto the parent. During a recent discussion with a psychologist, he mentioned that he was pleasantly surprised to observe his demented relative express joy over the simple things in life, i.e. the beautiful countryside. IMO, if his relative could feel joy, than she is "living" and it is presumptuous for us to conclude that she would prefer death because she felt that way BEFORE she lost her marbles.

I've been thinking about this stuff lately because my father is beginning to not only show signs of short memory problems, but confusion as well. Although he is aware of his memory lapses and confusion, he is still able to make informed decisions. He recently declined surgery that would have been appropriate for a younger individual, but not necessarily for an 86 year old. It seems to me he is at the point where he could off himself if he so desires, but as far as I can tell, he has no plans to do so. A year from now it will be too late. See what I'm getting at? We think we will pull the trigger when we are aware of our declining cognitive state but unless it is accompanied by severe depression, it is unlikely that we will choose to do so until it's too late.

[lenora]

Originally Posted by old_cold

Actually, I was only asking Pilgrim about his/her "plan".
And that is only because of "the best laid plans of mice and men" aspect of life.
Many many people declare that they will do this or that but many many more won't have the mental faculty, the means or the opportunity to carry it out.

I welcome anybody elses response to the rest of it.

It brings to mind a book written about a lady developing Alzheimers.
Left herself a 'checklist' made up of questions to read every day with detailed instructions to herself as to how to carry out her own suicide when she could no longer answer the list of questions.
Problem was she began to answer them incorrectly and didn't realize it.

"Still Alice" by Lisa Genova. It was recommended to me by a psychologist-turned-attorney friend of mine. He thought it would show me that I clearly do not have "mild cognitive impairment". Unfortunately, I freaked out reading the first chapter. Nevertheless, IMO the book is excellent and I highly recommend it.

[MrRational]

Originally Posted by SCGranny

...and the doctors who are getting paid to prolong that life ...won't tell them.

I'm sure you have some anecdotes to back up this assertion...
but lets just say I don't accept it as any sort of universal truth.
In my own experience I've seen nothing of the sort.

Plan your exit. Make your wishes known. Document, document.
Don't be afraid of death, be afraid of what people will put your battered body through
in the name of prolonging your life for their own self-interest.

And be prepared to spend a few hundred dollars of your own with an attorney
and with your physician for their time to counsel you on the particulars...
where the foul lines and problems are in general and in your particular circumstance.

A couple years ago an effort was made to allow Medicare to pick up the expense
of that consultation with the physician...

[jghorton]

The article is long, but, very well written and somewhat horrifying when one considers it as a possible end-of-life scenario for themselves. Yet, from my experience with the elderly, the author presented a realistic and balanced picture of what many families are facing.

A major problem I have seen is that people don't have serious end-of-life discussions with their loved ones ...while they are still coherently able to do so. Therefore, many of the decision are made on the basis of emotion or 'guilt' by family members left to handle the 'problem' on their own. ('Who wants to not put in a feeding tube and leave dear old granny to 'starve to death' ... which is NOT really what happens, but IS what most people imagine).

My wife and I have left some pretty detailed EOL documents (living wills and other directives) and have started to have these discussions with our kids (even though we/they imagine that our own demise is probably years away(?) -- This article has again motivated me to make sure that the kids (now 40+) have a much clearer picture of our wishes (We're all going on a July 4 vacation ... and that will be a good time to do this together!).

[MrRational]

Originally Posted by jghorton

A major problem I have seen is that people don't have serious end-of-life discussions with their loved ones ...while they are still coherently able to do so.

Or even to write them out in letter form or to leave any sort of detail with the attorney. I'm not sure if it's generational or just tempermental but my folks (Dad was an estate planning CPA and trustee btw) made absolutely no provisions for anything whatsoever beyond the most vague trust direction the law would allow (and completely out of scale and complicated relative to the estate size). Not even funeral direction let alone meaningful input about their preferences for EOL concerns.

My wife and I have left some pretty detailed EOL documents (living wills and other directives) and have started to have these discussions with our kids (even though we/they imagine that our own demise is probably years away...

Good for you.

[Bette]

It was 2010 - she was 89 - she chose to just stop all the medication and chose to go to Hospice. Hard on all of us but it was 6 weeks and we all got to say goodbye in our own way.

She just kept saying - I'm tired, I just want to go and be with Jesus - and she is. I know that.

Later, going through her things, I found her small bible from 1928 and her little girl handwriting in it.

I learned more about her after she was gone!

But, my husband and I have my FIL left. He is 89, almost 90, still lives in his home and when we try to discuss anything, it's - I'm going to live to be 100.

Ugh! Not that I don't want him around; if he's here, we want him healthy!!
(not lying in some nursing home)

[Pilgrim21784]

Originally Posted by old_cold

Actually, I was only asking Pilgrim about his/her "plan".
And that is only because of "the best laid plans of mice and men" aspect of life.
Many many people declare that they will do this or that but many many more won't have the mental faculty, the means or the opportunity to carry it out.

I welcome anybody elses response to the rest of it.

It brings to mind a book written about a lady developing Alzheimers.
Left herself a 'checklist' made up of questions to read every day with detailed instructions to herself as to how to carry out her own suicide when she could no longer answer the list of questions.
Problem was she began to answer them incorrectly and didn't realize it.

Sorry, no comments from me of a "plan". I was purely expressing "philosophical viewpoints". You should be very aware of the fact that any Doc, social worker, etc. can have one involuntarily committed to a psych ward for expressions of any such plan. Think about it.

There are those souls who cling to the last gasp (and many are forced into it by lack of planning or the roll of the dice); and then there are those who look reality in the eye and jump at their discretion before they are engulfed by cultural conventions they may seriously disagree with - to each their own decisions.

We all end up in the same place at the end of the journey. The difference is whether one directs their life or is a victim thereof.

JMHO

[SCGranny]

Sadly, it isn't always family members who call an ambulance or take the elderly to the ER - If a neighbor sees an elderly person fall in their yard, if someone - anyone - requests a "Welfare check" because the elderly person hasn't been seen or heard from in several days, if you are a victim of a car wreck, a collapse at a grocery store or McDonald's - if you don't have the documentation on you, or a family member standing next to you to say "NO!" - you are going to an ER, because the police/firefighters/paramedics/business owners/landlords are not going to risk a lawsuit.

Make sure that you not only have documentation, but that your executor is a trustworthy person who will have your interests at heart. Our daughter is a pathologist and understands the way we feel as well as the medical implications of all sorts of diseases and injuries. Because of her knowledge of these things, as well as her financial acuity and common sense - and the fact that she watched us deal with dementia and various long-term medical problems with her grandparents - we made her our executor. So if one of us dies and/or we both start 'slipping', we trust her to do the right thing - or help us to do it.