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Perhaps, just perhaps, therein lies the current problem. In one post you say you've done nothing wrong. In this one you say you've apologized - for what, doing nothing wrong?
I think we all have some regrets about our parenting and past experiences with our children. None of us is perfect and it really is human to err. But you also mentioned such things as "rank" and "power" and being "in charge." None of those totally square with being worthy of respect. Rather, they can invoke a fear response in children. I know because it's how I was parented and some of that rubbed off on me when it came to my children to the extent that I would not tolerate disrespect or overt disobedience.
But unless a parent's transgressions are or have been horrific, I'm not so sure that apologies are in order. We're merely human. We make/made mistakes. But generally we do so without malice. Those types of apologies open the door to children saying that whenever their lives live turn out to be less satisfying or successful than they envisioned it's all their parents' fault(s).
Over the years, three of my five adult children have each, individually and covering a span of at least 10 years, tried to open that door with me. They're all adults. In each case I've responded that while I may have made mistakes, as parents are wont to do (children don't come with guarantees, warranties, assembly instructions or operations manuals), once they reach adulthood their successes or lack thereof are their responsibilities. End of discussion! I've only ever had to say it once.
Just to clarify the highlighted point . . . when I was around 40, I took a full inventory of my life and saw many of my foibles . . .at that time and a few years later, I took the opportunity to tell each one of my children that I regretted a few things . . .I wanted to take responsibility and let them know I acknowledged my short-comings. I realize my flaws created situations for them that would have impact so I wanted to tell them my mistakes were made out of ignorance and unconsciousness, as opposed to malice.
In the intervening years, I thought I had developed good relationships with all but one . . . In the case of the CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES, I have done NOTHING wrong . . . nada . . . in fact, I would have expected us all to bond together instead of being ripped apart . . .and in the beginning we were working together but then something went awry . . .I could go into detail here, but won't - just suffice it to say that I believe it is some kind of weird group dynamic and unconscious motives on their parts to cast aspersions on me to take the focus off of what is painful . . . just a guess.
When I brought up the term "rank," I explained it as a concept in process work (a school of psychology) . . . I probably understand it a little differently than you, but you can apply the normal definition to it. As a young, attractive woman, I had a lot of rank . . .as an old woman, not-so-much . . .I can feel the discrimination . . .it is not my imagination. I was powerful in my younger days and now I literally have no power . . .As a young mom, I had power over them . . .and of course as kids grow up, you lose that power . . . that is a natural phenomenon . . .I am just explaining it the way I understand it.
When they were young, perhaps they wanted to tell me to F off, but couldn't - well now they can (that is not a literal example, but what it feels like, energetically) . . .they are now exercising THEIR power as young, attractive, vital adults . . . the idea of old people as ineffective has roots in reality . . .we literally cannot "fight" for ourselves (again, this is all from a process work framework - it is metaphorical, not literal).
If any one of them, in isolation, tried to pull the crap that all of them have pulled at one point, I could have "taken them on," energetically . . . but in a group setting, it becomes bullying - and one person cannot go up against four or five people . . .there is a pack-mentality that ensues . . .I am sure you have experienced it yourself as being part of an ingroup - there is power in that and people go unconscious and don't realize that they are severely wounding someone else - they see it as "their right" to express themselves or something like that . . .
In the end, it is just bad will and unconsciousness (I believe). I don't think they set out to hurt me, but I do think they feel justified in doing so - I said they FEEL that way - may not THINK that way - there might not be any rational thinking attached to it - it's just "Mom deserves this," for whatever reasons.
I'm not looking for advice - I am just coping with it as best I can - I was just curious if anyone else had experienced something similar . . .My ex-husband had a big family and I think they did that to his mom - so I don't think it's unheard of . . . some people are just mean as snakes.
What I read "My husband were here to defend me". My husband died February, 2012 and that sentence hit home for me.
For myself, it isn't about power, it's mutual respect. What I have learned, some people cannot hear you. They only
hear what they want to hear or choose not to hear you at all. Very calmly, if I get the chance, will state where I am
coming from, for my peace. How they react is up to them.
The Lord is now my husband, He has brought caring people to me, with His guidance, with the assistant of those people He brings into my life*, will live as best I can. Will also decide what is acceptable and non-acceptable behavior, pray to have the courage to speak up for myself. Did speak up about part a recent situation and left my son speechless !
*City-Data folks have been Very caring, kind, compassionate and most helpful in dealing with my grief, beginning of my
new journey without my beloved husband now in Heaven.
Your words resonate with me - I think what you said is very wise . . .I am sorry about your loss.
You are correct that some people cannot or will not hear you - I honestly never considered my kids to be in that camp, but now I do.
I thought the world of my oldest daughter and would have never dreamed she would betray me - I see that I missed a lot of cues . . . I gave her the benefit of the doubt and now, looking back, I see that I wanted to believe things were better than they were. I was in denial because it never occurred to me that this could be a possibility. It's just beyond my comprehension, but I am slowly seeing what I didn't want to see.
I feel bad for myself because I put myself in a one-down position many times because I was trying to be accommodating.
imcurious, you mention that you have the personality trait of being very direct and analytical and your children do not. I cannot for the life of me even remotely get a handle on what has happened, which might color my thinking on this one - but I am an emoter. I think with passion and come at something from my heart, practicality be damned. My son is a lawyer and cannot have even one emotional moment, I don't think - everything must be dissected and rationalized and categorized. Regardless of the "rightness" of the emotion he will make that logical decision every single time. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes he's right. Well, I'm always right in my own mind, but that's another story!
It is incredibly frustrating to both of us...I'm being loosey-goosey, he's analyzing it to death. In the heat of the moment we literally cannot see the other's point of view, and yes - we have hurled some words back and forth.
The other son doesn't say two words until the end, then he throws out zingers like "you never said" or "you always did"...then we end up distracted from the original problem and have to go back and work out crap that happened 25 years ago.
Either way, because I deal straight from the emotional part, I end up feeling like I'm under attack. I'm not. They have their own way of expressing and I have mine. Sometimes they don't consider that, and sometimes I don't consider them as being adult enough to have logical thought processes, even when those processes are VERY adult - simply because it isn't my way.
The other thing is the parent-child dynamic. I don't care if we're 6 or 60, it's always there and it's just lurking around and waiting to be heard. What we remember in our child's mind isn't always the way it was, but it is our reality and our perception of the situation...and probably won't be altered a lot.
Words that have been said can never be un-said. Actions can never be un-done. But it can be a time for reevaluation of everyone's personality, the hot buttons, and reflecting on how we interact with our now grown and very independent children. It may be that you need to take a vacation from them for a while before the situation escalates further. I know you are hurt, but time and distance give us all a different view on things. There's no telling what's really going on here - with too few facts to deal with, we're just inventing possible answers. However, as with every relationship, I'm always about taking the high road...saying "I am SO sorry we had this disagreement, and I'm so sorry you feel the way you do. Life is short - can we move past this?" You're not saying you're wrong, but you're saying you want to bury the hatchet. If indeed that is what you want to do.
Sounds to me like they've developed the pack mentality and that, charged by whatever situation is going on, has given them a collective voice. Back off, back down, let them "win". Doesn't mean you have to like it, doesn't mean you have to change your opinion one iota. Once the crisis has passed and everyone has gone back to their respective corners they may not be so brave without their siblings holding their hands, and indeed they may feel badly about what has happened. Or they could screw up the situation and need you to bail them out.
I know you're feeling displaced and de-throned...and it sucks big time...I see that in my father, who is 80 and somehow recognizes but cannot accept that his 55 and 48 year old children just might have adult ideas and beliefs that are not consistent with his own and a solution that might work even though it isn't his solution. And surrendering to their solutions rather than his own, particularly when he feels outvoted, can bring out the worst in him. I think it's just all part of growing up - for everyone.
At least in your situation they are not all "against" you - you can have some self-respect . . .when your kids all turn on you, then it is difficult. And I know it might seem like, "Gee, if they are turning on her in numbers, then she must be in the wrong . . ." but that is not the case . . . they are just lashing out at me because I am "there," and have always "been there" - and others have not . . .and they do have "issues" with me, but that is not cause for mutiny and/or disrespect. I have been very good to them and have apologized for all of my past "sins" of omission and commission.
Please think of yourself for once; stop apologizing and put your foot down hard. Tell them you will have nothing more to do with them until they change from their disrespectful ways. I know that that will be very hard for you to do this because you've obviously been a wonderful and loving mother. But if you don't do it they'll just become worse and worse. Cut them off; make them come back and apologize to you for the terrible way they're treating you. Again, I know it will be terribly hard, but don't worry; it won't take long.
I am not going to go into details about the situation . . . I guess it is not that common a problem for a senior to have . . .I was just wondering if anyone else had suffered that kind of pain and humiliation to have your "children" really betray your trust and act out against you (for any reason) . . .just not cool.
I have a relative in my life I am not crazy about, but I try to be respectful.
I thought my "children" loved me - I really did - I had no idea, so it is kind of shocking and a big loss.
I don't think what you are describing is that unusual when the mother is quite elderly. But you are not over 80, so . . .
Your posts are so cryptic, it is very difficult for me to come to terms with what the situation was and if their reaction was all that unusual or if you set yourself up, unknowingly, for this "power struggle." It is NOT difficult for me to understand your daughter "seizing the power" but what you describe sounds like she has successfully split you from others in the family and that could be indicative of some personality disorder on her part -- and this situation you find yourself in may be the result of many years of such behavior (but you were simply not aware of it).
On the other hand, maybe it is not that at all.
BUt since you have not given us any details -- only adjectives -- it is really difficult for me to sort this out. I honestly want to reply to you with something meaningful, as you have stated this has been very painful, and I totally connect with that. Nothing is more painful than when our children do not respect us. What is the quote from King Lear? something like: "How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child."
The other thought I had when reading your posts is -- my worst fear is growing older and finding myself both irrelevant in the wider community and minimalized by my son and stepchildren. I mention this b/c I have seen this happen many, many times. Witnessed it recently with some of my childhood friends who were reacting to their mother as if she were a weight around their necks. I was so saddened, as she had struggled to raise them as a single mom (widowed in her 30s) . . . and had spent her life dedicated to her children and grandchildren.
So without more info, I am not sure I can relay the info you are looking for . . .but in general, I would say that it is not that uncommon when one is quite elderly to have adult children decide as a group how they are going to "deal with" mom . . . without mom having much to say about any of it.
Sorry if none of this applies to your particular situation. And I am sorry you are going through this sad time.
imcurious, you mention that you have the personality trait of being very direct and analytical and your children do not. I cannot for the life of me even remotely get a handle on what has happened, which might color my thinking on this one - but I am an emoter. I think with passion and come at something from my heart, practicality be damned. My son is a lawyer and cannot have even one emotional moment, I don't think - everything must be dissected and rationalized and categorized. Regardless of the "rightness" of the emotion he will make that logical decision every single time. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes he's right. Well, I'm always right in my own mind, but that's another story!
It is incredibly frustrating to both of us...I'm being loosey-goosey, he's analyzing it to death. In the heat of the moment we literally cannot see the other's point of view, and yes - we have hurled some words back and forth.
The other son doesn't say two words until the end, then he throws out zingers like "you never said" or "you always did"...then we end up distracted from the original problem and have to go back and work out crap that happened 25 years ago.
Either way, because I deal straight from the emotional part, I end up feeling like I'm under attack. I'm not. They have their own way of expressing and I have mine. Sometimes they don't consider that, and sometimes I don't consider them as being adult enough to have logical thought processes, even when those processes are VERY adult - simply because it isn't my way.
The other thing is the parent-child dynamic. I don't care if we're 6 or 60, it's always there and it's just lurking around and waiting to be heard. What we remember in our child's mind isn't always the way it was, but it is our reality and our perception of the situation...and probably won't be altered a lot.
Words that have been said can never be un-said. Actions can never be un-done. But it can be a time for reevaluation of everyone's personality, the hot buttons, and reflecting on how we interact with our now grown and very independent children. It may be that you need to take a vacation from them for a while before the situation escalates further. I know you are hurt, but time and distance give us all a different view on things. There's no telling what's really going on here - with too few facts to deal with, we're just inventing possible answers. However, as with every relationship, I'm always about taking the high road...saying "I am SO sorry we had this disagreement, and I'm so sorry you feel the way you do. Life is short - can we move past this?" You're not saying you're wrong, but you're saying you want to bury the hatchet. If indeed that is what you want to do.
Sounds to me like they've developed the pack mentality and that, charged by whatever situation is going on, has given them a collective voice. Back off, back down, let them "win". Doesn't mean you have to like it, doesn't mean you have to change your opinion one iota. Once the crisis has passed and everyone has gone back to their respective corners they may not be so brave without their siblings holding their hands, and indeed they may feel badly about what has happened. Or they could screw up the situation and need you to bail them out.
I know you're feeling displaced and de-throned...and it sucks big time...I see that in my father, who is 80 and somehow recognizes but cannot accept that his 55 and 48 year old children just might have adult ideas and beliefs that are not consistent with his own and a solution that might work even though it isn't his solution. And surrendering to their solutions rather than his own, particularly when he feels outvoted, can bring out the worst in him. I think it's just all part of growing up - for everyone.
Lots of wisdom in this post. I have a spiritual counselor who is advising the same thing - to resist "fighting" them - to be passive and let things play out - and hopefully, in the meantime, we will all learn something. I think it is good advice.
Location: Finally escaped The People's Republic of California
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Hmmmm, terms like rank, the power, Family leader, etc might be the problem. Once children grow up and move away from home, they start thier own families. They as the adults and parents run thier show, they may ask advise from thier parents, but ultimatley it's thier call. Should they decide to take course other that your suggestion, that's up to them.
Now I may be off course, but adults don't nessasarly need or want thier parents advise unless asked for. Is it possible that you have treated your children as children and not adults?
I don't think what you are describing is that unusual when the mother is quite elderly. But you are not over 80, so . . .
Your posts are so cryptic, it is very difficult for me to come to terms with what the situation was and if their reaction was all that unusual or if you set yourself up, unknowingly, for this "power struggle." It is NOT difficult for me to understand your daughter "seizing the power" but what you describe sounds like she has successfully split you from others in the family and that could be indicative of some personality disorder on her part -- and this situation you find yourself in may be the result of many years of such behavior (but you were simply not aware of it).
On the other hand, maybe it is not that at all.
BUt since you have not given us any details -- only adjectives -- it is really difficult for me to sort this out. I honestly want to reply to you with something meaningful, as you have stated this has been very painful, and I totally connect with that. Nothing is more painful than when our children do not respect us. What is the quote from King Lear? something like: "How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child."
The other thought I had when reading your posts is -- my worst fear is growing older and finding myself both irrelevant in the wider community and minimalized by my son and stepchildren. I mention this b/c I have seen this happen many, many times. Witnessed it recently with some of my childhood friends who were reacting to their mother as if she were a weight around their necks. I was so saddened, as she had struggled to raise them as a single mom (widowed in her 30s) . . . and had spent her life dedicated to her children and grandchildren.
So without more info, I am not sure I can relay the info you are looking for . . .but in general, I would say that it is not that uncommon when one is quite elderly to have adult children decide as a group how they are going to "deal with" mom . . . without mom having much to say about any of it.
Sorry if none of this applies to your particular situation. And I am sorry you are going through this sad time.
Thank you. I am sorry the information is cryptic but I really don't feel it would be my place to disclose personal information about other people . . . I think there is a "thinging" of old people that people sometimes do (which you mention) - and I was surprised to feel my kids doing this to me - in the past, I had sometimes noticed that they created this "mom thing" in their minds and then they would trash it - I said something about the dynamic of "thinging," but don't know if they got it.
About my eldest daughter running with the ball, re: power . . .that was a real shocker to me - I had always perceived her as being loyal, but now I think I was projecting this good trait on her . . .I think it just came from my imagination or what I wanted or expected. I don't think my daughter has a personality disorder . . .I just think she is extremely stressed and in denial, and also blames me for the situation somewhat (without disclosing details I think the blame might be that I had a child who caused a problem).
Another thing is there is sibling rivalry going on, where I never saw that before and the way it relates to me, in this situation, is that I think they are mad at me for favoring the kid for whom the trauma surrounds. Like I said, it is very complicated - and if I were to provide details, I would have to spend my life writing about this because it is so complex - there are so many variables and nuances.
But in the end, I have been bullied, attacked without provocation, and marginalized - and to add insult to injury, a couple of them post their fun "family" get-togethers on Facebook . . . it's very hurtful - my ego suffers, and I have lost my family, essentially.
Hmmmm, terms like rank, the power, Family leader, etc might be the problem. Once children grow up and move away from home, they start thier own families. They as the adults and parents run thier show, they may ask advise from thier parents, but ultimatley it's thier call. Should they decide to take course other that your suggestion, that's up to them.
Now I may be off course, but adults don't nessasarly need or want thier parents advise unless asked for. Is it possible that you have treated your children as children and not adults?
Please think of yourself for once; stop apologizing and put your foot down hard. Tell them you will have nothing more to do with them until they change from their disrespectful ways. I know that that will be very hard for you to do this because you've obviously been a wonderful and loving mother. But if you don't do it they'll just become worse and worse. Cut them off; make them come back and apologize to you for the terrible way they're treating you. Again, I know it will be terribly hard, but don't worry; it won't take long.
We are not really interacting at the moment.
Thank you for your support - I doubt I was very "wonderful," but I was loving. Thank you.
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