U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Retirement
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-19-2014, 02:37 AM
 
71,520 posts, read 71,712,424 times
Reputation: 49105

Advertisements

as i mentioned in an earlier thread we finally got ourselves to an estate attorney to talk about retirement and long term care planning.

we brought our documents we drew up 12 years ago with us and pretty much everything we did had to be re-done as things were out dated or worded wrong for our current situation.

one of the biggest things that obsoleted our old wills were they never took in to account the kids pre-deceasing when grandchildren are involved .

basically it read that if one of our children died their share went to the surving children.

but that is not what we want now ,especially in a 2nd marriage where we each have our own kids.

now we want a deceased childs share to go not to the surving children but we want that childs share to go to their children (our grandchildren)

i suggest you read your wills and see how the wording is, many times the canned forms do not leave things to the grandchildren , the share just goes to the other surviving children and the grandchildren get nothing if their parent died.

in fact we have seen wills by general practioners not even have wording that deals with what happens if a child dies before the parents and their are multiple children in the will.

we had one that omitted that point and it ended up in a costly court battle because the probate court declared the will defective since it involved by wifes deceased first husband dying before his parents.

since other children were involved it did not spell out whether assets went to just the other surviving children or stayed in the deceased persons bloodline and went to their children instead of other family members.

predeceasing is not something that is just automatically dealt with in wills since things typically go from father to mother to kids.

but they rarely spell out what happens if a kid dies before the parents .

Last edited by mathjak107; 04-19-2014 at 02:46 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-19-2014, 03:17 AM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 18,973,893 times
Reputation: 15649
A really good atty would point that out to you when first planning your estate. Contingencies in a will/trust are always wise.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-19-2014, 03:33 AM
 
71,520 posts, read 71,712,424 times
Reputation: 49105
the problem is like financial planners you do not know who the "really " good ones are until it is to late.

there are no do overs to correct things later.

soooo many are making the mistake of using these on line canned forms as well supposedly by "good attorneys"

even general practitioners are supposedly really good attorneys. but the problem is there are very few really good ones.
i can only tell you about the issues we have run in to with poorly worded or constructed wills but we can't tell you about what we don't know.

we wouldn't even know if other areas we have had no issues with in our wills are being dealt with correctly as you can only review and ask about what you know to make sure it is there and not what you don't know.


i bet at least half the folks here who pull out their wills and who did them before having grandchildren have wills that leave shares for predeceased children to the other children they have and not pass to the grandchildren instead.

there are two choices , the deceased share goes to other living children to be split or the deceased share stays with the deceased and goes to their own children (your grandchildren).


the default in most cases with no grandchildren is the shares are split by the other surviving children. unless you understand this point trying to do your own canned forms can be a minefield.

if there are no grandchildren when you saw that attorney origonally odds are there are no provisions added for things to change after having any.

thats why i bring this point up. we saw it in our own documents after it was pointed out only because we were there for a consultation on something else..

Last edited by mathjak107; 04-19-2014 at 03:59 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-19-2014, 03:48 AM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 18,973,893 times
Reputation: 15649
I think it's excellent you bring this up. I went to four estate attys for "free" consultations and walked away from every one of them when they presented me with something I could have gotten myself off the internet. When you get an atty who spends a couple of hours with you asking all kinds of peering questions you know you have someone good.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-19-2014, 03:56 AM
 
71,520 posts, read 71,712,424 times
Reputation: 49105
we had to deal with 2 different wills in our lifetime with omissions that cost us dearly.

in one case we had a refinance on an inherited house stopped at the closing. the title company asked to read the will.

it said to my child XXXX i leave my house and possesions . it was missing the word "only" as in only child XXX.

i had to pay the co-op attorney, the bank attorney and the title company attorney for the day and get affidavidts she was an only child. we lost our interest rate too.

the next catastrophe was involving a business and poorly constructed wills where predeceasing was not dealt with correctly.

that was a huge problem and cost us 500k..... we had to buy out unintended partners and legal fees ran 100k.

to the attorneys who did these documents all looked well, to the common eye they were fine. but under the hood there were issues.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-19-2014, 04:26 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
28,494 posts, read 62,136,122 times
Reputation: 32168
The key phrase to check for:
Per stirpes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The divorced with mixed asset pool can get complicated and quickly.
Especially so when providing for surviving spouse support:
QTIP Trust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-19-2014, 04:42 AM
 
71,520 posts, read 71,712,424 times
Reputation: 49105
we actually just set up two wills with disclaimer trusts. our concern is more about our estate taxes state wise. of course ny raised the threshold a week after we did the disclaimer trusts but it is still a good idea to have in place anyway .

nys state went from only 1 million in 2013 to over 2 million for 2014 and it will increase by 1 million every year up to the federal limit.

kudos to ny as just about anyone with a paid off home and a 401k in many of the more desirable areas went over that 1 million limit.

Last edited by mathjak107; 04-19-2014 at 04:55 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-19-2014, 05:52 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,745 posts, read 4,216,058 times
Reputation: 6866
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
<snip>

i bet at least half the folks here who pull out their wills and who did them before having grandchildren have wills that leave shares for predeceased children to the other children they have and not pass to the grandchildren instead.

<snip>

the default in most cases with no grandchildren is the shares are split by the other surviving children. unless you understand this point trying to do your own canned forms can be a minefield. <snip>
Well, I'd bet a million dollars you would be wrong. Even simple wills include a clause that clearly states either per capita or per stirpes. I have never drafted nor reviewed a will prepared by another attorney that did not include a clause using one of those terms. This is "baby" estates stuff; even my paralegal students understood the importance of including the appropriate clause when drafting a will. IOW, it is standard protocol for every attorney to explain to the client the difference between the two methods of distribution and ask the client how he wishes the inheritance to be divided. Of course, I'm not talking about the do-it-yourselfer.

That said, I can see how an otherwise educated person could mistakenly elect a per capita distribution of nonprobate assets when completing the beneficiary form on an IRA, mutual fund, life insurance policy, etc. Some people don't bother reading instructions or asking for assistance.

Now that I think about it, even my father, an otherwise bright and diligent but stubborn guy, has designated his estate as the beneficiary of his IRAs. Seriously.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-19-2014, 05:57 AM
 
29,775 posts, read 34,863,854 times
Reputation: 11705
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
we actually just set up two wills with disclaimer trusts. our concern is more about our estate taxes state wise. of course ny raised the threshold a week after we did the disclaimer trusts but it is still a good idea to have in place anyway .

nys state went from only 1 million in 2013 to over 2 million for 2014 and it will increase by 1 million every year up to the federal limit.

kudos to ny as just about anyone with a paid off home and a 401k in many of the more desirable areas went over that 1 million limit.
We dealt with a divorced son and him pre-deceasing us in depth and how to keep money from our former daughter in-law until our Grand Daughter was well into adulthood. Maryland as like NY is raising their Estate Tax from one million as many were fleeing the state for the same reasons. I believe they are raising it to five million. One of the things about the DC area is that their are many pensioners who are living off of their pensions and if eligible SS with sizable equity in their homes and are still investing in retirement and have increasing net wealth to be protected.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-19-2014, 06:33 AM
 
71,520 posts, read 71,712,424 times
Reputation: 49105
Quote:
Originally Posted by lenora View Post
Well, I'd bet a million dollars you would be wrong. Even simple wills include a clause that clearly states either per capita or per stirpes. I have never drafted nor reviewed a will prepared by another attorney that did not include a clause using one of those terms. This is "baby" estates stuff; even my paralegal students understood the importance of including the appropriate clause when drafting a will. IOW, it is standard protocol for every attorney to explain to the client the difference between the two methods of distribution and ask the client how he wishes the inheritance to be divided. Of course, I'm not talking about the do-it-yourselfer.

That said, I can see how an otherwise educated person could mistakenly elect a per capita distribution of nonprobate assets when completing the beneficiary form on an IRA, mutual fund, life insurance policy, etc. Some people don't bother reading instructions or asking for assistance.

Now that I think about it, even my father, an otherwise bright and diligent but stubborn guy, has designated his estate as the beneficiary of his IRAs. Seriously.
your on , i will e-mail you where to send my check. i can show you our old wills that clearly state in the event any of the kids are deceased it goes to the surviving kids and we never requested it that way either. our kids were not even married so it wasn't a thought at the time.

just googling around calling up different wills on line you can download shows no reference at all to pre-deceasing in them.

in fact here is what one of the largest legal web sites nolo has to say about it:


At Nolo, we don't use the term "per stirpes" in our wills because we think that a will is better off without it. "Per stirpes" is an old-fashioned term frequently used (sometimes misused) by attorneys and rarely fully understood by will makers. It's intended to make sure that children inherit in the place of a deceased parent, but over the years there have been many lawsuits surrounding the term, with varying results. Because of these variables, using per stirpes may have unpredictable or unintended consequences."

Last edited by mathjak107; 04-19-2014 at 06:58 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Retirement
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top