U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Retirement
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 05-15-2014, 07:11 AM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,956,950 times
Reputation: 6718

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalara View Post
IIRCC, you're a retired lawyer. Do you even realize you sound like you're in a courtroom interrogating a witness?

I never give my exact location. I have an inquisitive ex-husband. Let's just say between Palm Springs and San Diego.

I have a paid-for 2000 sf custom-built home with a 3 car garage on acreage. And a paved driveway. On a paved road even.
Landscaped with lavender, rosemary, salvia, oleanders, and trees. No cactus, and I have a twice a year gardener.
My neighbors are too-far-for-talking distance. We either shout or walk over.
Lots of horses, but I don't own any of them.
The wild burros come down out of the hills and visit though.
No streetlights or city lights.
Views of 2 mountain ranges.
The nearest store is 10 miles away.

I have a truck and camper I plan on living in sooner or later, while I look for a place outside California. I'm tired of the heat and the brownness. I want cool and green. I know where to look.

I don't drag anything, except cigarettes.
Being a lawyer - I'm not surprised I sound like a lawyer . And - being a lawyer - I can understand your reluctance to disclose your exact location based on what you said. I just think it's important when discussing issues like this for people to give at least some background information - because all of us have various biases about the kinds of places we like to live in. FWIW - after living in high rise condos for 20+ years - my husband and I had had enough (long long story). And are quite happy in a single family house in a HOA. I can't imagine us moving back into a condo - especially a high rise condo - again. Robyn

P.S. Are you and I the last smokers left in the US?
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-15-2014, 08:17 AM
 
12,973 posts, read 12,814,981 times
Reputation: 5420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
Like I said (and always say) - there are 50 states with 50 different sets of laws and regulations. And you can't assume that they're anywhere near the same (or even similar). Note that Florida has time shares and condo hotels too. As well as statutes and regulations that apply to each. FWIW - condo hotels present additional issues (like whether they're subject to state and federal securities laws) - but that's a whole 'nother story/thread. Robyn
Actually there is a high degree of commonality divided into a couple or three different schools of operation...and then there is Florida...which has an amazing ability to do it differently. And few of the FL things would be seen as benefiting the consumer. The transaction broker is my favorite.

Most of the west is reasonably consistent on much of this stuff. Very different from the east but similar to each other.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-15-2014, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Columbia SC
9,018 posts, read 7,778,187 times
Reputation: 12267
Robyn hits the nail on the head when she says 50 states, 50 sets of laws. I would add that word condo means various things and is quite often misused. When I see the word condo, I think of an apartment type unit in a high rise building but that is just me.

In SC there is SC Horizontal Property Act which covers high rise (multi level) buildings under an owners association. There are no specific regulations covering non-high rise (townhouses, duplexes, single family, etc.) owner associations. There is a bill stalled in a house committee to cover these type owner associations, but I for one lobby to keep it stalled in committee but that is another subject.

A fellow owner on our developer to owner transition committee moved here from FL. He is continually quoting FL Laws. He has to be reminded over and over that FL's whatever's do not apply here. His FL experience aside, he does not know crap about running an association.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-16-2014, 07:11 AM
 
9,228 posts, read 9,297,498 times
Reputation: 28940
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
Please that that condo associations and HOAs are different animals. And - at least in Florida - covered by 2 different sets of statutes and regulations promulgated under those statutes. In general - single family houses will be in HOAs - and multi-unit multi-level residential buildings will be condos. Townhomes and patio homes might be either. But there are always exceptions to general rules. And Florida is just one of 50 states. Each state will have its own laws and regulations. Some places can be co-ops. They exist in Florida - but are very rare (and usually pretty old). Again - a different animal governed by another set of statutes and regulations.

In terms of people who complain about the "people who run these places" - remember that it is homeowners who run these places. And they are not anointed. Officers and representatives are elected (and committees are almost always appointed by the people who are elected). Anyone is free to run for office. But few people do. Because it's a generally thankless unpaid job. My husband and I have lived in condo associations/HOAs since 1975. And - even when we were working - took the time to do various things for our associations over the years. Except for our current HOA - a lot of residents in our places were second (or third or fourth) homeowners like you. Who tended to complain about us - and - in many cases - treated us worse than one would treat hired help. But never volunteered to spend even 10 minutes to do anything. Note that these people were pretty much wealthy south Americans (a group I would never care to live with again). They thought we weren't doing enough for them. But they - as a group - weren't unlike most homeowners. They sat back - didn't do anything - and complained.

Good point. I have sort of had a "laisse faire" attitude toward the HOA until recently. We live about 300 miles away from our second home and I couldn't sit on the HOA Board if I wanted too. I got the shock of my life when I first got a mailing from them. I gather one of the Board members is someone I once brought a lawsuit against. Anyway, for one who has lived the last 27 years in a single family home in a neighborhood, the rules involved in belonging to a condominium can be quite a shock. I have no one to blame, but myself, though because they were all a public record.

If you don't like your association - regardless of its form - I have a suggestion. Either run for office - or volunteer to do something. Since my husband was a lawyer - he served as the chairperson of our covenants violation committee here for a few years (he didn't volunteer - our HOA president asked him to do it - and he agreed to take the job). That is generally an excellent thing for a lawyer to do. Get a look at things from the other side of the fence. For every rule that you think is silly - there will be a case that proves you wrong.

Good idea, but not practical right now for the reasons I've given above. Still, I understand the concept. If you won't participate in the system than what right do you have to complain? I'm just upset because last time I was down there enjoying myself, some old biddy comes marching to my door with a tape measure (yes a tape measure) and measures the height of my shrubbery in front of my house. I was flabbergasted. She than instructs me to have my landscape guy make certain changes in the front yard. I'm still reeling from the experience. We've owned the home now for almost five years and this is the first time anything like this has happened.

FWIW - my recent contact with our HOA rules (I don't have many) was entirely positive. We have rules prohibiting anything other than emergency outdoor work by contractors during the week after 7 pm (a reasonable rule IMO). And the guys doing the roof on the house next door to us (contract dropped off labor) didn't have a clue. We happened to be having dinner guests on Monday - and the idea of the noise of roof work ruining my dinner party wasn't acceptable. So we called our roving security - and it got rid of the guys before 7 pm.

People are used to different things. In our main home, we lived next door to a fellow who was a masonry contractor and kept some equipment in his yard. Mind you, my neighborhood is fairly well-to-do area which is generally full of professional people and small business owners. There used to be many small children in the area, although most have grown up now. However, the noise level is always on high side here. Families keep their homes up and I see all sorts of contractors doing building projects on a regular basis here. Our house is built to be quiet inside, and for the most part, we don't notice too much going on outside while we are in our house. Because of that, we have a high tolerance for what our neighbors do.

BTW - I'm sure some HOAs and condos have silly rules. But the 2 you mentioned don't seem silly on their face to me. Overgrown shrubs that block windows are not only unsightly - they're potential security hazards. A 3" rule means that's the highest your shrubs should be. In most cases - a reasonable shrub height would be lower. We don't have a specific rule like that - but most people here have enough sense not to allow their shrubs to get so overgrown that they block their windows. If they don't - we have a general landscaping clause - about keeping your property in a certain condition - to deal with the situation.

As for a rule against roses - we don't have one like that either. Although a rule like that would save homeowners in Florida a lot of grief . Roses do not like Florida (they usually come with adoption papers that say "plant us in a place that has a climate like most of the UK" ). Even with the best of TLC (which is a TON of work) - they get bugs and crummy looking black leaves and look like garbage. There was a woman here in our HOA who decided she wanted to grow roses - and prize-winning ones at that. She worked on the project like crazy and spent a fortune on it. We used to drive to see her roses (her rose garden was visible from the street). Which sometimes were very nice - but often only good or mediocre. One year we went to see her roses- and they were gone. The Florida climate had defeated her.

Even so-called knockout roses (a made for the south not so swell looking type of hybrid) aren't a piece of cake. I don't know if you watched The Players last weekend. That's where I live. And a lot of the red flowers people saw on TV were knockout roses. And there was a team of I don't know how many gardeners out for a couple of months before the tournament pruning those roses - fertilizing those roses - spraying those roses - and mulching those roses. Just so - if the weather gods were agreeable - those roses would look great on TV. I'm a member of that golf club. When the tournament was in March - nature did its job with a lot less human help when it came to azaleas. But our azaleas are gone by May - and the tour had to do something to take the place of the azaleas.

I have probably told you more about this than you wanted to know. But my only points are that sometimes rules that seem silly on their face really aren't. And that rules that may inconvenience someone (like my neighbor trying to get a cheaper roof job by having Mexicans work for 12+ hours a day) may also inconvenience others (whether it's me - trying to have guests for dinner - or just a regular family sitting down for dinner with kids/then doing homework with kids after and being bothered by a lot of construction noise).

So what rules in particular are starting to irritate you in your place? Surely not the rules you mentioned. Robyn

The rules right now that upset me the most are ones that have to do with having guests stay at your home. I allow friends and guests to stay in my home in southern Utah for short vacations with some frequency. Its a way of building new business, being nice to friends and relatives, and keeping existing business contacts happy. Those of us who use these residences as second homes frequently do this. The existing home owners don't like all these people they've never seen before staying next to them. They've enacted rules that require us to limit such stays and require us to register the name of our guests. They've enacted other rules which make it difficult for some homeowners to rent out their condo. I'm noticing that there is growing tension between second home owners like myself and those who use the condos as their primary home.

Anyway, your points are well taken. I just have other things going on in my life of greater priority and I find it an annoyance.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-16-2014, 08:13 AM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,956,950 times
Reputation: 6718
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The rules right now that upset me the most are ones that have to do with having guests stay at your home. I allow friends and guests to stay in my home in southern Utah for short vacations with some frequency. Its a way of building new business, being nice to friends and relatives, and keeping existing business contacts happy. Those of us who use these residences as second homes frequently do this. The existing home owners don't like all these people they've never seen before staying next to them. They've enacted rules that require us to limit such stays and require us to register the name of our guests. They've enacted other rules which make it difficult for some homeowners to rent out their condo. I'm noticing that there is growing tension between second home owners like myself and those who use the condos as their primary home.

Anyway, your points are well taken. I just have other things going on in my life of greater priority and I find it an annoyance.
Ah - the Airbnb issue with no money changing hands (at least in your case - although other people in your community may be renting). Airbnb's legal troubles: the tip of the iceberg for the sharing economy? | Guardian Sustainable Business | theguardian.com. Major major issue. Because it goes to the very nature of a community - especially one in a resort/vacation area. In my neck of the woods (NE Florida) - there are places that allow 1 week rentals - those that don't allow any rentals - and everything in between. I think it's important for a prospective homeowner to look into this issue before buying - so he/she is getting the community "flavor" he/she wants.

WRT your specific situation - I would ask 2 questions first. Are the current rules ok in terms of Utah law? Also - to the extent that they were put into place after an owner bought - can they be applied retroactively?

FWIW - I doubt anyone can seriously object to guest registration. It's pretty much a safety thing - knowing that someone in a house has permission from the owner to be there. In my HOA - it wouldn't be an issue at all because we're a gated community and owners have to authorize all guests before they get through the gates. Robyn
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-16-2014, 08:20 AM
 
9,228 posts, read 9,297,498 times
Reputation: 28940
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
Ah - the Airbnb issue with no money changing hands (at least in your case - although other people in your community may be renting). Airbnb's legal troubles: the tip of the iceberg for the sharing economy? | Guardian Sustainable Business | theguardian.com. Major major issue. Because it goes to the very nature of a community - especially one in a resort/vacation area. In my neck of the woods (NE Florida) - there are places that allow 1 week rentals - those that don't allow any rentals - and everything in between. I think it's important for a prospective homeowner to look into this issue before buying - so he/she is getting the community "flavor" he/she wants.

WRT your specific situation - I would ask 2 questions first. Are the current rules ok in terms of Utah law? Also - to the extent that they were put into place after an owner bought - can they be applied retroactively?

FWIW - I doubt anyone can seriously object to guest registration. It's pretty much a safety thing - knowing that someone in a house has permission from the owner to be there. In my HOA - it wouldn't be an issue at all because we're a gated community and owners have to authorize all guests before they get through the gates. Robyn
Funny, you should ask. We had a meeting about two months ago and I raised this point. I think most of the HOA Board hates my guts now.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-16-2014, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Northern IL
241 posts, read 227,233 times
Reputation: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The rules right now that upset me the most are ones that have to do with having guests stay at your home. I allow friends and guests to stay in my home in southern Utah for short vacations with some frequency. Its a way of building new business, being nice to friends and relatives, and keeping existing business contacts happy. Those of us who use these residences as second homes frequently do this. The existing home owners don't like all these people they've never seen before staying next to them. They've enacted rules that require us to limit such stays and require us to register the name of our guests. They've enacted other rules which make it difficult for some homeowners to rent out their condo. I'm noticing that there is growing tension between second home owners like myself and those who use the condos as their primary home.

Anyway, your points are well taken. I just have other things going on in my life of greater priority and I find it an annoyance.
In our gated community in central FL:

1. Rentals have to be a minimum of 3 months.

2. Family/guests can stay for shorter periods. (We have family go there 1 wk at a time for 4 or 5 weeks of the 6 months we are not there)

3. We have to register with the gate so they have access.

4. We researched this before buying and talked with the neighbors and everyone who does not live there full time does number 2 and 3 and the full timers don't complain about it.

I guess the key for us was to research the community (though mood could always change) and we built a pretty good relationship with the neighbors. We let them know in advance when someone (other than us) will be in the house.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-16-2014, 12:13 PM
 
14,273 posts, read 24,029,111 times
Reputation: 20106
^^^

I do NOT have problem with weekly or monthly rentals. However, I can see some headaches if the units are being rented nightly or are being used for business activity.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-16-2014, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,956,950 times
Reputation: 6718
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlawrence01 View Post
^^^

I do NOT have problem with weekly or monthly rentals. However, I can see some headaches if the units are being rented nightly or are being used for business activity.
It's not a question of what's ok by you - or ok by me. It's a question of what a particular homeowner is looking for. And finding the place that's a good fit. Where I live - < 1 year rentals would be totally unacceptable to me. And a home based business that's conducted on line (and some of my neighbors have businesses like that) wouldn't bother me at all. Robyn
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-16-2014, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,956,950 times
Reputation: 6718
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Funny, you should ask. We had a meeting about two months ago and I raised this point. I think most of the HOA Board hates my guts now.
The retroactive issue in particular is contentious and a big deal legal issue to boot. In my general neck of the woods - there was a case involving the retroactive application of new prohibitive rental rules in an Amelia Island condo. I honestly don't remember how it turned out.

Off the top of my legal head in general - I'd say that applying new very changed rules retroactively to existing owners when it comes to guests or rentals would have a lot of large legal hurdles to overcome in almost all jurisdictions. If this is your situation - and I knew beans about the laws in Utah - I'd probably take your case . And - in your HOA - unless things can be settled - it may well come to litigation.

OTOH - in your HOA - I would suggest setting up a committee with homeowners on both sides to explore the issue. And to come up with recommendations. See what most people can live with. Which may be more than some people want - and less than others want. If you're all at 6's and 7's and can't talk with one another in a civil fashion - perhaps hire a professional mediator to sit in on a couple of the meetings (although this would be a last resort before litigation IMO). Also note that litigation WRT stuff like this can get enormously expensive (especially in Florida where the winner is entitled to attorneys' fees).

Overall - I think the goal is for homeowners to put themselves in the other guy's shoes. On your part - you want to use this property in X way now. But - IIRC - you also think this may be your permanent retirement home. When you might not be so fond of the notion of your next door neighbor having a ton of relatives from Florida staying for a week - getting drunk in the hot tub - and pretty much making a mess of things. So think not only about now - but the future.

FWIW - my HOA has *no* rental/guest rules. Our median house price is about $800k or so now (with prices ranging from $400k to over $4 million). The more expensive your property - the less likely you'll let friends or acquaintances stay there in your absence. Or do short (or even long) term rentals. Robyn
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Retirement
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top