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Old 08-12-2014, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 18,975,704 times
Reputation: 15649

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Unneeded corporate subsidies? When the competing nation across the ocean is giving them they perhaps become needed to keep corporations or citizens in the case of states. Again my friend remember money is mobile. We can change banks, investment houses and states that our money is registered in all on line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
...I think it's just an excuse to ignore the needs of others who are less fortunate. The poor will always be with us and the elderly poor deserve to live in dignity. No one is saying luxury, but dignity.


And that my friend is the crux of the matter.
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Old 08-12-2014, 07:11 PM
 
Location: Maryland
1,534 posts, read 3,781,840 times
Reputation: 2307
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post

And that my friend is the crux of the matter.



Actually noble NEG (I'm a longtime fan and have followed your many thoughtful posts for years) I would suggest that a more accurate viewpoint (crux - if you will) is that publicly funded health care/disability costs under current programs are the true totally unsustainable issues.

Medicare and the related disability programs were a grand idea, bought a gazillion votes for our selfless political prostitutes and --- are mathematically impossible to continue. As more than one prior poster has noted - there "ain't" no free lunches, not in the real world.

One could cover the full 4 year costs at more than one fine public university for a youngster for the costs of just one of many medical procedures common under the Medicare population (and please remember - the longer we live - the more we cost. It is especially ludicrous in the the last 18 months of life.)

Just how much of the public purse are the elderly entitled too? Live in dignity - yeah thats a lovely and noble attitude - but the crux is - who and how are you proposing to pay for it?

We geezers have a lot of voting power. I suggest the discussion ought also to include that we have a duty to our children and all future generations. The greatest testament to a well lived life (IMNHO) is that we exercise our life earned wisdom and not allow political manipulation and self interest to override common sense. Good - bad - so so - we've had our ride. Is it not our final duty to look beyond our lifetimes and consider the future of your's/mine/everyone's progeny?

There is a time to die and hopefully without consuming an inordinate amount of public resources at the expense of our youngsters. JMO

Last edited by Pilgrim21784; 08-12-2014 at 07:20 PM..
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Old 08-12-2014, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 18,975,704 times
Reputation: 15649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilgrim21784 View Post



Actually noble NEG (I'm a longtime fan and have followed your many thoughtful posts for years) I would suggest that a more accurate viewpoint (crux - if you will) is that publicly funded health care/disability costs under current programs are the true totally unsustainable issues.

Medicare and the related disability programs were a grand idea, bought a gazillion votes for our selfless political prostitutes and --- are mathematically impossible to continue. As more than one prior poster has noted - there "ain't" no free lunches, not in the real world.

One could cover the full 4 year costs at more than one fine public university for a youngster for the costs of just one of many medical procedures common under the Medicare population (and please remember - the longer we live - the more we cost. It is especially ludicrous in the the last 18 months of life.)

Just how much of the public purse are the elderly entitled too? Live in dignity - yeah thats a lovely and noble attitude - but the crux is - who and how are you proposing to pay for it?

We geezers have a lot of voting power. I suggest the discussion ought also to include that we have a duty to our children and all future generations. The greatest testament to a well lived life (IMNHO) is that we exercise our life earned wisdom and not allow political manipulation and self interest to override common sense. Good - bad - so so - we've had our ride. Is it not our final duty to look beyond our lifetimes and consider the future of your's/mine/everyone's progeny?

There is a time to die and hopefully without consuming an inordinate amount of public resources at the expense of our youngsters. JMO
Pilgrim, you know I get what you're saying, and all so true. But please why does everyone virtually ignore the elephant in the room? I keep bringing up the outrageous public (taxpayers, that's us) ongoing subsidy of corporations and agribusiness (= welfare), admitted by them themselves to be unneeded, and no one bats an eyelash. So unbelievably, Americans seem fine with that kind of spending (twice as much as social aid programs) and not with allocating taxes to aid individual people in their own society (such vehemence!). Interesting society we live in. Sounds like the barbaric times of throwing people into the lions den while preserving the Pharaoh in luxury.
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Maryland
1,534 posts, read 3,781,840 times
Reputation: 2307
A simplistic answer, True Heart NEG, is that our political system is (and has been for a very long time - IMO - if not since inception) one which thrives on prostitution for self interest - whether in isolation (get reelected or via group interest - as in - we've got ours - your needs don't count.

One of the immense jokes about self sufficiency in the US is the western image of "we are noble and independent true Americans" - just bother to take a look at the Federal funds that have subsidized the water supply across the entire area west of the 100th meridian - biggest welfare queens on the planet. (Before anyone takes offense - get your facts straight before flaming me - its been a hobby of mine and the numbers do not lie.)

Democracy has a terrible flaw in some views - one which Jefferson was quite concerned about - the rabble get to vote. One should note that Thomas J was quite comfortable with owning and using his slaves while espousing the inalienable rights of man. (Which by the way, he swiped from some earlier Polish sources.)

My brain, knowledge and wisdom are far too feeble to offer a viable answer. The issue of conducting a nation's affairs with honor and common interest has eluded many a great mind back to our roots since ancient Greece.

I am my brother's keeper - well maybe, it kinda depends, would you please pass the wine while I think about that idea? But the rude facts of life are that we cannot as a society continue to promise unlimited health care to the elderly and/or disabled populations.

The more I study history (a true passion in my retirement dotage) the more I am confused and dismayed at how little we have progressed as a species over THOUSANDS of years. It can be a bit depressing to think about, whether historically or in the current context - BUT!!! -

My 1st time sunflower garden has been fantastic, my tomatoes have been superb and my granddaughter thinks I'm a god (she recently asked me to stop the rain on our walk). My wife and children seem happy with me. Such is life - and the beat goes on. Did I mention something about self-interest?

PS - my apologies to the OP - got a tad off topic.

Last edited by Pilgrim21784; 08-12-2014 at 09:33 PM..
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:24 PM
 
Location: too far from the sea
19,839 posts, read 18,855,957 times
Reputation: 33746
If the government has learned how to give money away to everybody else who is UNdeserving, why can't they figure out a way to help deserving elderly?

They can always find money to send young men and women overseas to be killed, there is always money to pay farmers not to farm, money to waste on the validated examples of exorbitant charges for simple office supplies in government offices, money to give away to other counties who don't even appreciate it. Even money to house and educate people who sneak into the country! The list is endless. Somebody had better figure out a way to help our own people.

Have we produced a generation of selfish people who will only help themselves or their immediate families? For anyone less fortunate it's sink or swim? No one wants to expend the energy to figure out a way of helping deserving elderly? Easier just to say it's impossible and I've got mine so let's just drop it. Meanwhile the government is hemorrhaging money to people who don't deserve or appreciate it. But let's just be complacent and uncaring?
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Maryland
1,534 posts, read 3,781,840 times
Reputation: 2307
Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
If the government has learned how to give money away to everybody else who is UNdeserving, why can't they figure out a way to help deserving elderly?

Please define deserving elderly (and specify who is doing the definition by what criteria)


Have we produced a generation of selfish people who will only help themselves or their immediate families? For anyone less fortunate it's sink or swim? No one wants to expend the energy to figure out a way of helping deserving elderly? Easier just to say it's impossible and I've got mine so let's just drop it. Meanwhile the government is hemorrhaging money to people who don't deserve or appreciate it. But let's just be complacent and uncaring?
And your criteria for this is?

Last edited by Pilgrim21784; 08-12-2014 at 08:58 PM..
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 18,975,704 times
Reputation: 15649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilgrim21784 View Post
A simplistic answer, True Heart NEG, is that our political system is (and has been for a very long time - IMO - if not since inception) one which thrives on prostitution for self interest - whether in isolation (get reelected or via group interest - as in - we've got ours - your needs don't count.
.
Self-interest thrives on the services of slaves. And the slaves must be fed and housed, otherwise no service. If the slaves are the retired elderly poor, then it becomes a matter of ethics, not even morals, to contribute to some extent to their well-being. An unethical society is not one that everyone would want to live in. Some, who thrive on self-interest would. Others, who have it in them to look beyond their fear, would not. Happily for all, that's all I have to say on the matter.
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Old 08-13-2014, 03:33 PM
 
29,782 posts, read 34,871,258 times
Reputation: 11705
Free Markets are by nature a process of self interest.
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Old 08-13-2014, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,018 posts, read 17,737,509 times
Reputation: 32304
Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
We have billions upon billions for bailouts and unneeded corporate subsidies. Need anyone say more?
Yes, I'll jump in and say more. Putting aside for a moment the fact that most of the bailouts have been paid back with interest, making the bailouts a money winner for the taxpayers in the aggregate, your basic argument is deeply flawed. You are saying, in effect, "Well, if we only quit wasting tax money on this, that, or the other, then there would be enough money to pay for my favorite program."

On a logical level, the problem with that reasoning is two-fold:

1. Getting everyone to agree on where the biggest wastes of money are, and
2. Getting everyone to agree on where the "saved" money ought to be spent.

Note that I agree there is lots of "waste". But I still hold that your argument is deeply flawed. For one thing it comes across as self-righteous. (Have you met poster bUU? - hope I have the initials and capitalization correct).
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Old 08-13-2014, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,699 posts, read 23,664,674 times
Reputation: 35449
Sometimes although people save as best they can all their lives, when they become elderly their savings just don't go as far as they had hoped. Add to that ever increasing medical expenses they did not have when they were younger might take a good bite out of their retirement savings.

No one has a crystal ball. No one really knows how much they will need in their old age if they are even able to work as long as they wish. Often older people are often forced to retire before they are financially ready either due to poor health or their employers wanting to replace them with new blood. Maybe they just become obsolete in their skills or their jobs are replaced by machines. We all don't get to choose our retirement dates.

There are many valid reasons to give older folks subsidies, benefits, helping hands or whatever you want to call them. The elderly don't have the same opportunities most young people have to regroup from financial hardships. Those who have worked and saved but find they have come up short towards the last shouldn't have to worry about whether or not they will be able to survive because of circumstances over which they did might not have had a lot of control. Those who have been more successful should be more understanding.
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