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Old 10-03-2014, 12:28 PM
 
Location: St. George, Utah
756 posts, read 884,344 times
Reputation: 1971

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For me this exchange should shed some light on what is meant when people use emotionally laden but nebulous terms like "the most vulnerable among us."

There are children of drug addicts, and then there are, well, drug addicts.

There are people who worked and planned well and perhaps experienced a health-related catastrophe or natural disaster that took them down financially, and then there are those who made choices for years and decades at a time not to better their situation.

I am happy to support the former, both personally and "societally." (with time, money, moral support--it's not JUST about money, and with social programs--I wish some social programs, like the foster system, were much better funded.). I am happy to support the latter too, but with advice, a list of agencies where they can find help making better choices--with my time and encouragement, perhaps. I'm not willing to engage in the enabling of self-destructive (and society-destructive) behavior by handing these people checks while they continue making bad decisions.

Some people are going to have the wherewithal to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Others won't, no matter what is given to them. The people in the middle are the ones we can choose to condition to be satisfied making crappy choices with their lives because it's easy and relatively comfortable, or instead to encourage to do the hard work of making something of themselves and creating a real plan for their own future(s).

To me it's like the panhandlers discussed on so many C-D threads. ANYONE who works with the homeless will tell you in absolute terms, NEVER give them money. All that does is stroke the giver's ego, makes them feel great about themselves for a bit. I am guilty of this from time to time--it's like I can't resist! But most of the time I hear the words of our local homeless shelter director (and everyone else who volunteer regularly) in my head, "If you want to help homeless people, give the shelter the money. I am helping people who want to turn their lives around. No question that the money you give to a panhandler will be spent feeding the addiction, whatever it is." He gets angry that so many people pat themselves on the back for "giving" to homeless people but refuse to come down and support the shelter (which helps people get on their feet long-term) either with time or money. It's just a quick "fix" for us to throw money at a problem but never address the core issues which invariably include a person's character. In the view of those closest to the homeless issue (and who would know better what "most vulnerable" means?), giving to panhandlers is a HARMFUL and self-indulgent act.

If someone chooses a certain level lifestyle, I am fine with that. But don't expect someone else to foot the bill later for your lack of initiative.

If someone wants a way out of the life they are living, I want programs in place that teach them the way--not excuses made for them or incentives to hover in comfort without ever breaking through to real success and self-determination.

I will feed you, I will clothe you, I will shelter you--myself if I have to, through local charities, etc. and ultimately through the safety nets provided by the government and paid for by the taxpayers. But I won't do your work for you, and I don't think it's kind of anyone else to do so.

But don't expect me to stroke a check so that your lifestyle can more closely approximate that of someone who busted his/her butt for a lifetime, who saw the writing on the wall and worked to make sure they would live the way they desired. You'd better believe those people had the discipline to tell themselves "NO," when they saw something they wanted or thought they'd just take a day or a year off of school. But they are cruel for telling you "no" when you want a lifestyle you didn't bother to plan or work for?

There's a difference between vulnerability and indolence. I just happen to believe we can care for the first without enabling the second.

Last edited by Montanama; 10-03-2014 at 12:41 PM..
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Old 10-03-2014, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
23,592 posts, read 17,582,380 times
Reputation: 27682
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
Ah, there's the rub...THAT person goes back to school, this person can't afford to go back to school.
The very poor get the most grant and aid money.
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Old 10-03-2014, 02:20 PM
 
71,651 posts, read 71,777,271 times
Reputation: 49241
apex tech was filled with manpower folks who got to go for free while i went and borrowed more money then i ever owned to go to the school.

most did so poorly the school had a terrible rep for students so companies shyed away from hiring them.

i had to lie about my experience just get my first job.
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Old 10-04-2014, 12:19 AM
 
33,046 posts, read 22,067,502 times
Reputation: 8970
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
but this person spent 10k on stuff to try to sell. this person could have used it for a trade school. in fact there are soooooo many companies in all trades looking for helpers and apprentices .

the bottom line is if you really wanted to you would find a way.

just the mere fact you are on line instead of pounding the pavement daily says you really are not going to do anything about the situation.
my entire working career was kicked of by going to apex technical school and borrowing the money from them.

i had zero skills except drumming.

Ha, you jumped to a wrong conclusion. I regularly view new listings and find items that could bring higher prices with a better listing. (Many sellers are selling Other People's Stuff - like when Grandma and Grandpa go into a nursing home and their grown kids help them downsize by selling off stuff.)

Or sometimes people go to storage auctions and buy je-ne-sais-quoi for the purpose of flipping for profit. I'm in a niche where most of these sellers know more or less nothing about what they have (again, it's not *their* stuff), so I volunteer suggestions for a better listing. These sellers often get much better prices than they expected and they often send me free stuff, e.g. if I help them make an extra $100 or so, they will often send me stuff worth perhaps $20 or so. Today I received a $20 book from a seller who has found my suggestions very helpful and profitable; another seller just sent me some freebies which have not yet arrived.

A third seller has a current listing I helped attract over 10 bids so far, is up to $50, and ends Sunday. (I predict it will sell in the $90 - $105 range.)

Problem is, I haven't found a way to directly monetize this, so I end up with stuff instead of cash.
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Old 10-04-2014, 12:27 AM
 
33,046 posts, read 22,067,502 times
Reputation: 8970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montanama View Post
For me this exchange should shed some light on what is meant when people use emotionally laden but nebulous terms like "the most vulnerable among us."

There are children of drug addicts, and then there are, well, drug addicts.

There are people who worked and planned well and perhaps experienced a health-related catastrophe or natural disaster that took them down financially, and then there are those who made choices for years and decades at a time not to better their situation.

I am happy to support the former, both personally and "societally." (with time, money, moral support--it's not JUST about money, and with social programs--I wish some social programs, like the foster system, were much better funded.). I am happy to support the latter too, but with advice, a list of agencies where they can find help making better choices--with my time and encouragement, perhaps. I'm not willing to engage in the enabling of self-destructive (and society-destructive) behavior by handing these people checks while they continue making bad decisions.

Some people are going to have the wherewithal to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Others won't, no matter what is given to them. The people in the middle are the ones we can choose to condition to be satisfied making crappy choices with their lives because it's easy and relatively comfortable, or instead to encourage to do the hard work of making something of themselves and creating a real plan for their own future(s).

To me it's like the panhandlers discussed on so many C-D threads. ANYONE who works with the homeless will tell you in absolute terms, NEVER give them money. All that does is stroke the giver's ego, makes them feel great about themselves for a bit. I am guilty of this from time to time--it's like I can't resist! But most of the time I hear the words of our local homeless shelter director (and everyone else who volunteer regularly) in my head, "If you want to help homeless people, give the shelter the money. I am helping people who want to turn their lives around. No question that the money you give to a panhandler will be spent feeding the addiction, whatever it is." He gets angry that so many people pat themselves on the back for "giving" to homeless people but refuse to come down and support the shelter (which helps people get on their feet long-term) either with time or money. It's just a quick "fix" for us to throw money at a problem but never address the core issues which invariably include a person's character. In the view of those closest to the homeless issue (and who would know better what "most vulnerable" means?), giving to panhandlers is a HARMFUL and self-indulgent act.

If someone chooses a certain level lifestyle, I am fine with that. But don't expect someone else to foot the bill later for your lack of initiative.

If someone wants a way out of the life they are living, I want programs in place that teach them the way--not excuses made for them or incentives to hover in comfort without ever breaking through to real success and self-determination.

I will feed you, I will clothe you, I will shelter you--myself if I have to, through local charities, etc. and ultimately through the safety nets provided by the government and paid for by the taxpayers. But I won't do your work for you, and I don't think it's kind of anyone else to do so.

But don't expect me to stroke a check so that your lifestyle can more closely approximate that of someone who busted his/her butt for a lifetime, who saw the writing on the wall and worked to make sure they would live the way they desired. You'd better believe those people had the discipline to tell themselves "NO," when they saw something they wanted or thought they'd just take a day or a year off of school. But they are cruel for telling you "no" when you want a lifestyle you didn't bother to plan or work for?

There's a difference between vulnerability and indolence. I just happen to believe we can care for the first without enabling the second.

Once upon a time I volunteered at a homeless shelter; we were instructed to NEVER give them money or cigarettes.

Which finally explained to me the Eric Clapton album.
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Old 10-04-2014, 02:32 AM
 
71,651 posts, read 71,777,271 times
Reputation: 49241
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
Ha, you jumped to a wrong conclusion. I regularly view new listings and find items that could bring higher prices with a better listing. (Many sellers are selling Other People's Stuff - like when Grandma and Grandpa go into a nursing home and their grown kids help them downsize by selling off stuff.)

Or sometimes people go to storage auctions and buy je-ne-sais-quoi for the purpose of flipping for profit. I'm in a niche where most of these sellers know more or less nothing about what they have (again, it's not *their* stuff), so I volunteer suggestions for a better listing. These sellers often get much better prices than they expected and they often send me free stuff, e.g. if I help them make an extra $100 or so, they will often send me stuff worth perhaps $20 or so. Today I received a $20 book from a seller who has found my suggestions very helpful and profitable; another seller just sent me some freebies which have not yet arrived.

A third seller has a current listing I helped attract over 10 bids so far, is up to $50, and ends Sunday. (I predict it will sell in the $90 - $105 range.)

Problem is, I haven't found a way to directly monetize this, so I end up with stuff instead of cash.
another poor choice!
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Old 10-04-2014, 03:13 AM
 
33,046 posts, read 22,067,502 times
Reputation: 8970
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
another poor choice!

What is poor about it? If I had the space, I would be making money selling this stuff for other people.
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Old 10-04-2014, 03:20 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,819 posts, read 19,910,927 times
Reputation: 23222
Howdo we end up with yet another thread being turned into a freemkt rehash?
His well known problems are only very loosely related to the topic of this thread anyway.
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Old 10-04-2014, 03:24 AM
 
71,651 posts, read 71,777,271 times
Reputation: 49241
it always turns in to freemkt asking what do i do ? or why don't we lower the bar for something . we tell him what he could do,should do or try to do and he replys with another excuse why he can't.

others will find a way -freemkt will find an excuse.

been that way as long as i can remember,

Last edited by mathjak107; 10-04-2014 at 03:47 AM..
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Old 10-04-2014, 05:11 AM
bUU
 
Location: Georgia
11,883 posts, read 8,665,350 times
Reputation: 8406
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
as always , you ask, we find a way , you find an excuse.
"As always" you rationalize refusal to acknowledge the possibility of the legitimacy of explanations when they would ruin your narrative. You have no means to know anything other than what the previous poster said. If you take onto yourself the role of determining the validity of his claim of legitimate barriers to success, then you essentially ratify comparable cavalier appraisals of your reply. You condemn your own comment with your reckless rhetoric.
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