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Old 01-30-2015, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
34,711 posts, read 33,734,897 times
Reputation: 51977

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Hey, what's elderly? If it's not cost effective enough to kill a bunch of people over 80, maybe we'll lower the age to 65, then maybe 55 if we're having a bad year with revenue. And why just seniors? Why don't we just kill more people quicker like your kid if they are going to be on dialysis for the rest of their life or they are menatally disabled or you after a skiing, diving or car accident and you know, you cost too much for us to keep you alive? Why don't we put it on the ballot say in California, "Should we raise taxes again or kill grandma?" Maybe we can tie it in to global warming while we're at it. Let's kill grandma or your retarded baby and save the planet. Maybe they'll give you a bumpersticker so you can brag about it publicly, "My kid made the honor roll and I killed my grandfather."
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Old 01-30-2015, 05:20 PM
 
Location: UP of Michigan
1,766 posts, read 2,086,199 times
Reputation: 5713
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
And why just seniors? Why don't we just kill more people quicker like your kid if they are going to be on dialysis for the rest of their life or they are menatally disabled or you after a skiing, diving or car accident and you know, you cost too much for us to keep you alive? Why don't we put it on the ballot say in California, "Should we raise taxes again or kill grandma?" Maybe we can tie it in to global warming while we're at it. Let's kill grandma or your retarded baby and save the planet. Maybe they'll give you a bumpersticker so you can brag about it publicly, "My kid made the honor roll and I killed my grandfather."
This is the diversion talking point that made true debate of counseling impossible. We all want to boil an issue down to a bumper sticker but it is not that simple. True there are various points of view and the reason to discuss end of life realities before they are emanate and clouded by emotion. IMO I want help considering options from someone who has no economic gain potential. (Read non profit health care)
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Old 01-30-2015, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
17,451 posts, read 21,283,365 times
Reputation: 24296
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamasplace View Post
<< I'm hoping when that day comes, someone comes to my room, gives me an injection, even without my knowledge/approval, and makes the decision for me! >>

Oh I hope not... informed consent is about as far as you can be from murder.
I'm talking about when the time comes, I can no longer get out of bed, I'm diapered, at risk for bed sores, and my mind "can no longer get out of bed". I won't even know the difference!
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Old 01-30-2015, 08:09 PM
 
143 posts, read 132,971 times
Reputation: 802
Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
I won't even know the difference!
And you know this how, exactly?

Are you still working with these types of patients in a healthcare setting?
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Old 01-31-2015, 03:42 AM
bUU
 
Location: Georgia
11,891 posts, read 8,679,201 times
Reputation: 8439
Quote:
Originally Posted by wordsmith680 View Post
This is the diversion talking point that made true debate of counseling impossible.
Very good point. It seems to be standard practice in our national discourse that when opponents don't have a reasonable argument to make against something that they personally hate, they refuse to argue against what was actually said and instead argue against things no one has suggested, just to have something to argue against and make it seem like their perspective has merit when it does not. How can we have a public discussion about substantive matters when opponents won't talk about what is really being discussed?
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Old 01-31-2015, 07:10 AM
 
753 posts, read 707,477 times
Reputation: 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
I'm talking about when the time comes, I can no longer get out of bed, I'm diapered, at risk for bed sores, and my mind "can no longer get out of bed". I won't even know the difference!
Okay maybe you won't know the difference at that point. But it takes away consent and choice- and when/if it ever does then God help us because that means we will be the Nazi's of our era.

Looking at the big picture.

Last edited by mamasplace; 01-31-2015 at 07:15 AM.. Reason: need coffee
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Old 01-31-2015, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
17,451 posts, read 21,283,365 times
Reputation: 24296
You can arrive, at that point in "life", where you're no longer in a position to sign a consent form, or alter your health directives, and there's no family/friend around to act as power of attorney! Happens all the time, due to one's tardiness in being proactive, leaving important matters go until it was too late!

My one-time patient in his late 40's, in the 1970's, shot himself in a failed suicide attempt, left brain dead, staring up at the ceiling, day and night, connected to tubes! Myself, in that miserable situation? No consent necessary! Act of mercy, where art thou!!!
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Old 01-31-2015, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,018 posts, read 17,765,919 times
Reputation: 32309
If we take Tijlover's arguments to be an expression of his or her personal desires rather than as an expression of what the legal situation should be, they make a lot of sense. Tijlover does not wish to lay in bed diapered, and neither do I. At that point the problem is we may not be able to take our own life because we may be physically and/or mentally too incapacitated to do so.

There is a genuine and frightening "slippery slope" issue in all this. I think Oregon's law is sensible and proper, but going beyond that starts down the slope.

Greater use of hospice-type services in place of "heroic" medical intervention in end-of-life care is also sensible and proper as a concept. But isn't the debate about the details of how that concept will be implemented?
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Old 01-31-2015, 09:30 PM
 
Location: East Dallas
931 posts, read 1,811,306 times
Reputation: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by luzianne View Post
OMG, you are so right. My mom had fantastic insurance. She had Medicare but her supplemental insurance policy she bought in 1982 or something and had it 30 years and it paid for everything. You cannot buy a policy like that now. But she had congestive heart failure and when she went to the ER, she was always admitted and the community hospital would keep her just as long as her insurance kept paying. They ran every test, did every kind of therapy, etc. Looking back, I wish I had not let them keep her like that - but it was mostly after the fact that I realized what was going on. The bigger, busy hospitals that were full would stabilize her congestive heart failure and discharge her. But the community hospital would milk it for all they could.

My dad, on the other hand, only had Medicare and VA. If he went to the emergency room they sent him right home. Turns out he had metastatic prostate cancer but we didn't know it till he died because they never checked him out for anything. They'd give him medicine and send him home. We even ASKED an ER doctor if it was possible that his prostate cancer had returned/spread because he was having back pain. The ER doctor said "no." Two months later he was dead. At my insistence that SOMETHING was wrong, they finally did a bone scan one week before he died. It showed widespread bone metastases. We got the results of the bone scan after his death.

I just fired the VA. I have Medicare Advantage and have decided that I can't afford VA free medicine. VA only treats when it has too. At least with Obama Medicine people who did not have insurance can see Doctors. I can't get that either. My wife has ChampVA my earned benefit for her and it is Rolls Royce paying for everything Medicare does not.

Until you use it no one really knows what they have.
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Old 02-01-2015, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Verde Valley AZ
8,629 posts, read 9,703,348 times
Reputation: 11024
Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
You can arrive, at that point in "life", where you're no longer in a position to sign a consent form, or alter your health directives, and there's no family/friend around to act as power of attorney! Happens all the time, due to one's tardiness in being proactive, leaving important matters go until it was too late!

My one-time patient in his late 40's, in the 1970's, shot himself in a failed suicide attempt, left brain dead, staring up at the ceiling, day and night, connected to tubes! Myself, in that miserable situation? No consent necessary! Act of mercy, where art thou!!!
My mom's situation could fit part of this. She had her directives in place but still.... When she had that horrible stroke she did have a DNR in place and my brother had the POA for medical. She would have ended up like that guy, just laying there staring at the ceiling and hooked up to all sorts of machines, for how long? The fact that she couldn't eat, swallow or take in liquids meant that she was going to lie there and slowly 'starve to death' which just killed me but what could we do? It just killed me to think of that and to watch her go downhill day by day. Thankfully the situation only lasted 11 days. I thought they sent her home to die because the 'money ran out' but found out later it was because my brother WANTED her home. However he thought that *I* would be the one taking care of her, not him, and that wasn't going to happen. She died exactly 48 hours after being brought home. I don't know how SHE would have felt about all this and she couldn't tell us herself. I do know she didn't want to exist in a totally helpless state and had told me that much. I don't even know if she knew she was home and probably couldn't have cared less.
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