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Old 04-17-2015, 02:39 PM
 
293 posts, read 437,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
I could not agree less. And it's not so much a moral responsibility as an ethical one. As we marry or partner for "better or worse," so we have this with our parents: I will not abandon you if you have few or no resources for your care, nor will I allow you any kind of negligent care. Within that promise there is a range of possibilities as to a solution.
I could hardly agree less with this. Apart from the fact that the distinction between a moral responsibility and an ethical one is rather ephemeral (if it even exists), none of chose to marry our parents. We did not choose them in any way. Of course, the obligations of marriage are somewhat ephemeral too since they're so easily escaped through divorce, but at least there is a promise there, and a choice. Not everyone is in a position to give care, or even monitor care, without substantial personal sacrifice. And not everyone loves their parents enough to make substantial sacrifice. Often, that's with very good reason.
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Old 04-17-2015, 02:55 PM
 
39,225 posts, read 20,343,317 times
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Originally Posted by saavyconsoomer View Post
To all you recommending retirement (nursing) homes you wouldn't if you cared about your loved ones. NO ONE is going to take as good care of your loved ones as you would period. My mother worked for some throughout her life and she quit many because of the horrible conditions the residents were forced to "live" in. Those who soiled themselves left to lay in it for hours, bedsores, & the ones that got the least family visitors were treated the worst, It's very sad I would never go to one.
I used to work in a nursing home and I saw what went on and let me tell you those nursing assistants were running their butts off from the time they stepped in to the time they left. They work with the staff that is available. Even though short staffed they did NOT leave people soiled for hours on end. If someone was soiled and had to wait you can thank the healthcare system (and all those "who want to fix it") by looking at people as ticks on the to do list. AND it's about to get a whole lot worse thanks to politicians and corporations.
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Old 04-17-2015, 04:32 PM
 
14,258 posts, read 23,979,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wannagonorth View Post
I could hardly agree less with this. Apart from the fact that the distinction between a moral responsibility and an ethical one is rather ephemeral (if it even exists), none of chose to marry our parents.

That has to be one of the great cop-outs. Of course, you have the responsibility to care for elderly parents.

Life in this country is so throw-away.
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Old 04-18-2015, 08:59 AM
 
293 posts, read 437,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlawrence01 View Post
That has to be one of the great cop-outs. Of course, you have the responsibility to care for elderly parents.

Life in this country is so throw-away.
I understand that a lot of people believe this, but I'm not one of them. I don't believe there's anything about them being parents per se that makes them worthy of our help and care. I also think that too many elderly view their children's obligations as a blank check, permitting them to demand way more sacrifice and accommodation than they have any right to expect. I believe this is the issue that started this thread.

I would not let my mother go hungry or live in the street. But I will also not organize my entire life around her preferences to the detriment of my own goals, plans, and needs.
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Old 04-18-2015, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Earth, a nice neighborhood in the Milky Way
2,534 posts, read 1,604,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlawrence01 View Post
That has to be one of the great cop-outs. Of course, you have the responsibility to care for elderly parents.

Life in this country is so throw-away.
This is 100% wrong. Much of the "medicine and old age" problem in this country is due to the fact that we treat life as being too precious. We extend people's lives well beyond reason, even if they're miserable with disease.

My hope is that by the time I am old and infirm and tired of living, that we will have come to our senses and offer euthanasia as a fundamental human right.

To inflict children, who had no voice in the decision to be brought into the world, with such an obligation is a particularly cruel twist to our nation of laws and responsibility. Your assertion that someone has such a responsibility comes across as a bit condescending, though I don't know if that is what you intend or just the way I read it. It's fine if you wish to take the responsibility on for yourself, but don't impose your beliefs on me.

Last edited by ormari; 04-18-2015 at 11:41 AM..
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Old 04-18-2015, 12:26 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,471,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ormari View Post
This is 100% wrong. Much of the "medicine and old age" problem in this country is due to the fact that we treat life as being too precious. We extend people's lives well beyond reason, even if they're miserable with disease.

My hope is that by the time I am old and infirm and tired of living, that we will have come to our senses and offer euthanasia as a fundamental human right.

To inflict children, who had no voice in the decision to be brought into the world, with such an obligation is a particularly cruel twist to our nation of laws and responsibility. Your assertion that someone has such a responsibility comes across as a bit condescending, though I don't know if that is what you intend or just the way I read it. It's fine if you wish to take the responsibility on for yourself, but don't impose your beliefs on me.
That is such an old, tired, selfish and self-serving argument I can't believe anyone is banal enough to repeat it.

If one is sorry they were brought into the world then perhaps they should take your advice and euthanize themselves. If they believe that life if worth living then they should have some consideration for those who made it possible.
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Old 04-18-2015, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Earth, a nice neighborhood in the Milky Way
2,534 posts, read 1,604,138 times
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^No. What is self serving, however, are parents who bring children into the world for the help they bring. That old school farm life, for instance, is a prime example of this. And there are certainly people who have kids so they'll have someone to look after them when they're old. In fact people have made that argument to me when I voice my choice not to bring a life into this world.

You have it backwards.

I do like the way you have resorted to an insult, rather than logic, to make your point. Bravo.

Last edited by ormari; 04-18-2015 at 01:50 PM..
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Old 04-18-2015, 02:38 PM
 
293 posts, read 437,958 times
Reputation: 1318
Quote:
Originally Posted by ormari View Post
^No. What is self serving, however, are parents who bring children into the world for the help they bring. That old school farm life, for instance, is a prime example of this. And there are certainly people who have kids so they'll have someone to look after them when they're old. In fact people have made that argument to me when I voice my choice not to bring a life into this world.

You have it backwards.

I do like the way you have resorted to an insult, rather than logic, to make your point. Bravo.
Ormari - I can't rep you again but I do want to say I totally agree with this and you prior posts on this thread.

There is really no logic to the claim that everyone is obligated to take care of their parents. There's only the insult: you're a bad person if you don't agree. They use blame and negative judgment because it's all they've got.
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Old 04-18-2015, 02:48 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,471,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ormari View Post
^No. What is self serving, however, are parents who bring children into the world for the help they bring. That old school farm life, for instance, is a prime example of this. And there are certainly people who have kids so they'll have someone to look after them when they're old. In fact people have made that argument to me when I voice my choice not to bring a life into this world.

You have it backwards.

I do like the way you have resorted to an insult, rather than logic, to make your point. Bravo.
My response was perfectly logical. It just doesn't happen to agree with your point.

I have five adult children and would take myself out before I'd rely on any one or all of them. Their mother, whom I divorced over 20 years ago, has been wholly dependent upon them and social services for the past 15 years and the last thing I'd ever do is add to their burden.

Not all of us fit your conception of selfish parents. If yours did then my condolences.
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Old 04-18-2015, 03:11 PM
 
Location: Earth, a nice neighborhood in the Milky Way
2,534 posts, read 1,604,138 times
Reputation: 1088
^No. You may wish to look up what elements of a logical argument are before making that claim again. I encourage you to re-read the post you made. Beyond that, I can't help you.

You made a choice to have children, and hopefully you did an honorable job in raising them to be self-sufficient creatures. But there is generally an element of either mistake or vanity in the reproduction process. Both are inherently selfish in nature, and both forms of self-gratification.

If you would "take yourself out" before being a burden, then you would most certainly be in the minority.
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