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Old 03-23-2015, 04:40 PM
 
197 posts, read 160,950 times
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Well said Modhatter. There is too much diversity out there to paint broad brush strokes in our comments and attitudes.
Can we just agree that no blame or condescension needs to be attached to all those who are retiring with more limited resources?; equally, not all who are in better circumstances have lived alcohol/ drug free, consistently hard working, and sound decision making lives.
Life is far more nuanced than many of us can willingly accept; it is far more subtle.
As a kindergarten teacher, we teachers talk about the bell curve of ability and achievement. I put equal effort into each child and we are all in the same school environment but the variables already exist before I meet them (nature/ nurture?)
The same bell curve exists through life and into retirement. It was ever so.
It does concern me that generic labels get attached to income groups because it is too simplistic and unsophisticated.
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Old 03-23-2015, 05:22 PM
 
2,421 posts, read 3,724,705 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveautumn View Post
well, you might be surprised how much "secretaries" (way outdated term) make these days and, yes, they do get 401k's and they get the same benefits as any other employee in a company. And a talented hairdresser (another outdated term) in a large metro area is usually charging around $80 or more for an hour's worth of service.
Thanks for the terminology reminder. Well office workers, office assistants, clericals and bookkeepers are employed by many smaLL businesses, which employ half of all private-sector workers. Small Business at a Glance - Small Business Statistics
So, we are not taking about IBM here. We know some can make a decent wage, but do you recognize or realize that just as many if not more do not?

Also, many STYLISTS are not so "talented" to work in the best and busiest shops. Many work in average shops with very average pricing and lack of clients. Others work for chains like Supercuts, Great Clips, Fantastic Sams, and are not paid 50% commission. It is more like 28% of low cost haircuts. I am quite familiar with this industry as I owned a chain of 17 stores located in Arizona and California, and I can attest to the fact that "many if not most" STYLISTS make less than $600 a week, even with tips.

Please understand you can teach a person to draw, but you can't teach a person to be an exceptional artist.
Also, I believe you are referring to a select few.. Need to take a stroll through all of your neighborhood shopping centers and pop in on these shops. There is a hair salon located in most every strip center. May change your mind.

Again, I think it might be a case of judging society by your own circles. But there is big vast world out there that might not be included in your circles.

Last edited by modhatter; 03-23-2015 at 05:43 PM..
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Old 03-23-2015, 05:36 PM
 
2,421 posts, read 3,724,705 times
Reputation: 3455
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukgirl49 View Post
Well said Modhatter. There is too much diversity out there to paint broad brush strokes in our comments and attitudes.
Can we just agree that no blame or condescension needs to be attached to all those who are retiring with more limited resources?; equally, not all who are in better circumstances have lived alcohol/ drug free, consistently hard working, and sound decision making lives.
Life is far more nuanced than many of us can willingly accept; it is far more subtle.
As a kindergarten teacher, we teachers talk about the bell curve of ability and achievement. I put equal effort into each child and we are all in the same school environment but the variables already exist before I meet them (nature/ nurture?)
The same bell curve exists through life and into retirement. It was ever so.
It does concern me that generic labels get attached to income groups because it is too simplistic and unsophisticated.
Saw your post after answering another. As a kindergarten teacher, you get to see first hand what I am trying to explain. I quote "I put equal effort into each child and we are all in the same school environment but the variables already exist before I meet them (nature/ nurture?)"

Step back even further, and evaluate the children in different school districts, and then the classrooms.

Effort is not always the clear and simple answer. A lot more effort can be expelled by some students only to still be behind in the bell curve.

Last edited by modhatter; 03-23-2015 at 05:52 PM..
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Old 03-23-2015, 06:24 PM
 
Location: SW Florida
9,759 posts, read 7,035,798 times
Reputation: 14295
Quote:
Originally Posted by BellaDL View Post
TurborgP,
I glanced at the news headline this morning and this article caught my eyes:

The Growing Divide Between the Retirement Elite and Everyone Else - TIME

"But truth is, most workers end up retiring well before age 65, and few have enough saved by that point. The least prepared workers, some 32% of those surveyed, were on track to receive just 38% of their income in retirement, which would be largely Social Security benefits.

By contrast, an elite group of workers, some 20%, are on track to replace 143% of their current income, Empower found. And it’s not just those pulling down high salaries. “The key success factors were access to a 401(k) and consistently saving 10% of pay, not income"

then I came across your thread topic which follows the same line.

I have not been on CD-forum very long but based from the few threads that I have followed, I totally agree with your observation and comment:

"Perhaps it is why so many threads become contentious as topics get discussed that play out differently across income groups. There are not very many opportunities at redo's once we hit our sixties".

It's clear that many of us are wearing different color or shade life-outlook glasses. I think that the majority of the posters here mean well in stating their point of view. Some of the comments/advices were not meant to be condescending, putting down or lecturing but they are probably more appropriate for younger folks who still have the time and the opportunity to do over, to make changes to improve their financial situation.
I'd second that! They state in the article, though, that "most workers end up retiring early". I wonder if that's true, or if it is, it's mainly due to job loss on the part of those workers, or health issues which make them unable to continue working.

My husband and I are in that category of folks whose income is close to 100% of what we brought in when we were working. But we didn't retire early, our plans were to retire in our mid-60's and that is what we did. If we had retired early, we wouldn't have been nearly as financially set as we are now, and I suspect that early retirement cuts quite a bit into the income most folks can expect at retirement. Just makes me wonder why, unless job losses or health issues force early retirement, why it seems to be expected if one really doesn't have the income to do so?

Last edited by Travelassie; 03-23-2015 at 06:41 PM..
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Old 03-23-2015, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,018 posts, read 17,740,386 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modhatter View Post
I think the disconnect comes in the way people who fall short in retirement are viewed. Like a couple of posters have mentioned, they feel alcohol and drugs is a large factor in this segment of the population. I think this is where the meeting of the mind of two schools of thought part. Some people tend to group all people together who didn't make to the finish line financially prepared for retirement, and blame them all for their lack of effort.

Others agree we have alcoholics, drug attics (sic - they should have stayed on the main floor!), and just plain irresponsible behavior that results in an eventual bad end. But also recognize that we have people of limited abilities and there fore only are able to obtain low paying jobs. I know we have a lot of single moms raising kids by themselves without the benefit of a degree and work in lower paying jobs. They are your hairdressers, your waitresses, your house cleaners, your secretaries, your grocery store checker, your cna's, etc., etc. There are no 401K's for these people. There for sure are no pensions. Do they work hard. You betcha. Probably harder than most with better paying jobs.

So, I think this is where we part ways in our thought process. We can all agree, we dislike the "slackers", but it's the other half who are not slackers, not alcoholics, or not lazy that I believe are still thrown in the same pot and blamed for not doing better. We are not all built alike. Some people are just plain "ditzy" and and some are lacking intellectually. You've met them. Will they ever become an executive? I think recognizing all the differences in people is where the descension stems from.

I didn't even want to bring up those who lost their earning due to illness or job loss later in life, etc. That has been discussed to death here. I am just focusing on of all the rest who didn't "make it", who make up the greater percentage in my mind.
Probably about as good a statement as can be reasonably made about this topic. (Although I'm still chuckling about those druggies in the attic!)

One minor side note I would add concerns looking at the dissension and contentiousness from the other side of the coin. While condescension and generalized blame can be irritating, some of the responses to that in your thread (which this one parallels) were over the top with extreme nastiness and ad hominem attacks. It's just one of those sensitive topics. Certain topics are dangerous by their very nature: race relations, religion, the male-female divide, and this one!
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Old 03-23-2015, 06:39 PM
 
33,046 posts, read 22,057,675 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallysmom View Post
I've seen the contentiousness. Not here, but it's the reason I no longer go to the SF board, and why I feel there is a greater gap between the haves and the have nots and it's going to get uglier.

The internet forum system in general seems rife with liars and nastiness. Having seen a whole big catfish scheme from the sides (I didn't fall in the target category, so I wasn't targeted) I now take what people say online with a grain of salt. All those rich people who are trying to make everyone feel awful about not saving and working hard?

C'mon -- you really think rich people play on the internet that way? They are on Amazon buying stuff for their next trip they bought with points from buying stuff on amazon for their last trip....

Personally I think they should get jobs and become productive members of society.
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Old 03-23-2015, 07:00 PM
 
8,857 posts, read 5,132,953 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modhatter View Post
I think the disconnect comes in the way people who fall short in retirement are viewed. Like a couple of posters have mentioned, they feel alcohol and drugs is a large factor in this segment of the population. I think this is where the meeting of the mind of two schools of thought part. Some people tend to group all people together who didn't make to the finish line financially prepared for retirement, and blame them all for their lack of effort.

Others agree we have alcoholics, drug attics, and just plain irresponsible behavior that results in an eventual bad end. But also recognize that we have people of limited abilities and there fore only are able to obtain low paying jobs. I know we have a lot of single moms raising kids by themselves without the benefit of a degree and work in lower paying jobs. They are your hairdressers, your waitresses, your house cleaners, your secretaries, your grocery store checker, your cna's, etc., etc. There are no 401K's for these people. There for sure are no pensions. Do they work hard. You betcha. Probably harder than most with better paying jobs.

So, I think this is where we part ways in our thought process. We can all agree, we dislike the "slackers", but it's the other half who are not slackers, not alcoholics, or not lazy that I believe are still thrown in the same pot and blamed for not doing better. We are not all built alike. Some people are just plain "ditzy" and and some are lacking intellectually. You've met them. Will they ever become an executive? I think recognizing all the differences in people is where the descension stems from.

I didn't even want to bring up those who lost their earning due to illness or job loss later in life, etc. That has been discussed to death here. I am just focusing on of all the rest who didn't "make it", who make up the greater percentage in my mind.
Also, many people unfortunately get horrible investing advice, so they lose too much of the savings they do set aside to high fees. The advisor who sold them that garbage though is sitting pretty at their expense.
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Old 03-23-2015, 07:53 PM
 
494 posts, read 880,580 times
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There is so much more to us than our net worth. And people get to whatever present financial means they have in a variety of ways. In my opinion, it isn't constructive to take the single data point of someone's present financial circumstances (whether well-to-do or poor or in between) as sufficient "data" to conclude anything much about them, good or bad, as a person. You don't know their individual story until you know their individual story.

I believe to really have an accurate understanding, one needs to (instead of stereotyping), get to know a person before making judgments. While issues on a societal level to do with haves and have nots are obviously taking place and important to consider in terms of public policy, etc. (and also in terms of how those of us who are so inclined can help), at the same time, I see people as being defined as human beings by so much more than their current financial status (even though clearly, at a given point in time, people are either constrained, or privileged, or in the middle in certain ways because of finances). For whatever reason(s) (maybe all the novels I read as a kid that took me into someone else's shoes for a while?), I don't find it hard to appreciate and empathize with the concerns that people who are different from me in some ways may have. Even if we differ on some things, we still all face many of the same challenges in life. There is common ground if you look for it.

Just to give a concrete example, in case I'm being too abstract, if someone has a serious illness or accident or has lost a loved one, I can have empathy with what they're going through and can want to help, if I can, whether they are a (relatively speaking) financial "have" person compared to me, versus someone who has the same as or less than me. Their finances are irrelevant to me at that particular moment.

Getting to know someone as the unique person they are, with all their individual strengths and weaknesses and in the context of the multifaceted, complex life they've lived, is how to turn down the volume level on contentiousness (which is not to minimize the need for society, and any of the rest of us who feel called to do so, to grapple with the issues of extreme disparities between people's financial situations).

Whatever our financial means, all of us are always making a choice as to whether to contribute to the understanding and good will that clearly exist or to the polarization that also clearly exists.

Last edited by City__Datarer; 03-23-2015 at 08:24 PM..
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Old 03-23-2015, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Central IL
15,238 posts, read 8,532,850 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveautumn View Post
well, you might be surprised how much "secretaries" (way outdated term) make these days and, yes, they do get 401k's and they get the same benefits as any other employee in a company. And a talented hairdresser (another outdated term) in a large metro area is usually charging around $80 or more for an hour's worth of service.
Perhaps, but your examples are likely limited. I'm thinking of all the small-town hairdressers where a haircut is $10...and secretaries / clerks working for small businesses with just a few other employees - no 401(k)s for them. Not everyone works in the big city or for big companies that offer fringe benefits.
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Old 03-23-2015, 08:18 PM
 
48,516 posts, read 83,943,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Isn' the Amazon rewards card just as you described. A circle of continuous Amazon buying. I confess I am addicted.
We actually buy a lot of things from amazon on Amazon Visa reward .I often find things not available or at better price. No need to go out and shop around to find.
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