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Old 09-03-2016, 06:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David A Stone View Post
I did about 10 years of extensive research on relocating to the south upon retirement.
Diversity didn't bother me one way or another but no way would I move to a high crime area.


I used City-Data Detailed Profile and soon noticed a correlation between diversity and higher crime rates.


I soon noticed that by seeing the racial make up of a city I could nearly guess the crime rate ( which was listed farther down in the profile)


Yes, there are a few exceptions, but I could be blindfolded and throw darts at a US map and 90% of the time or more the higher percent of Blacks, the higher the crime rate.


That isn't being racist. It is a fact.
True, but what you are missing, is that most of the crime in the south is located in areas that that have high poverty rates or are significantly ethnically diverse from middle/upper middle class Causcasion areas.
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Old 09-03-2016, 07:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
In other words - you live in a place that is almost 100% white except for some Brazilians who are racially mixed. And perhaps some Africans. Are they retired too - or do they do domestic help work?
In the U.S. diversity is skin color and to somewhat lesser extent, perhaps, language. That's your lens and it was the one I used when describing my neighborhood experiences in NYC. Given the history of the many separate countries in Europe diversity goes way beyond skin color and includes ethnicity and language to a greater and deeper degree than in the present-day U.S.

As for a breakdown of the Brazilians, look at the Brazilian censuses. A very large percentage are black Afro-Brazilians and mixed race. The categories have traditionally been so fine that the old censuses are baffling, and then especially as the classifications get redone. Blacks and what are now called Pardos/mixed-blooded not classified as white are almost 50 percent of the population, so of course many of the Brazilians here are black and brown skin colored and not white. The Africans are blacks and fewer mixed blooded people from the former colonies - in my town they are construction laborers, shop clerks, restaurant cooks, shop owners, school teachers. None of the cleaners who come to buildings around here are black or brown, maybe on other streets.

Quote:
I don't know exactly where you live in Portugal - but it is a pretty non-diverse place in general. Perhaps 5% immigrants at most. And that includes all the Brits/German/Dutch you mention. Who may be diverse in terms of being non-Portuguese and non-Catholics - but are pretty much all white.
It wouldn't do to keep your American skin-color lenses on here when looking for diversity, because the Portuguese and other foreigners would soon remove them for you. As in America, language ability gets you plunked in the diversity pile immediately and is very important, your ethnicity as well.

The outsiders:

For all of their presence Brits are fringe people, their money is good but their diversity cred sucks - most cannot speak the language and do not want to. Many clump in Brit golden ghettoes - they are here for "Not for Portugal but for Britain with palm trees/sun" is the common verbal backhand from Portuguese. Add to that the fact that many are discourteous about slagging the Portuguese in front of those who have just waited on them in English - supremely arrogant. This has caused a few hideous public scenes and the rumors of these spreads rapidly and is repeated often. But they are loved for their spending, and after all...."Oh, the English..." with a tolerant smile.

You mentioned religion. The practice of Roman Catholicism in the south of the country is very slim and of almost no importance to anyone. The small groups of Evangelicals are more consistently religious. Very few people in the South consider religion when thinking of what you call diversity. No one, but the evangelicals and the JW's, ever bring up the topic of religion.

Ciganos - resident Portuguese gypsies (no, they are not Roma) function as their own subculture, though they speak Portuguese and live in their own neighborhood.

Among the Romanians you see in the figures are included the Roma (Romanian gypsies) too, thoroughly disliked by the Portuguese ciganos and the Portuguese. And no one wants them living near them.

The mixers:

Gemans live mixed in with the Portuguese, and they can because they take pains to learn the language. Ukrainians are super-swift at the language and live mixed in. There are an increasing number of Chinese from the mainland and they are store owners in town who bought Golden Visas, and because of their businesses they labor to learn the language, the earlier Chinese are from Macao and a city on the mainland, which I forget, they speak excellent Portuguese and run restaurants. Indians, but I am only aware of what two families do - one owns a Portuguese restaurant, the other owns a building firm. And Venezuelans, who to my knowledge are thin on the ground in town, though not in Lisbon, and how they get on with their South American Spanish I do not know.

The majority of the neighborhood is Portuguese, my particular area is working class - the resident retirees are Germans and me - everyone else of whatever color or kind works. In addition to the dark skinned people who are what obsesses Americans as diversity, the diversity is the residents from Germany, China, the Ukraine and Modava but they are mostly bilingual, but none I have met speak Portuguese at home or among themselves...there is one full time resident English couple who speak Portuguese well - ethnicity ranks in importance the way in did in the late 19th and early 20th centuries in the U.S. My street has a peculiar twist in it that forms a pocket which isolates three building; and I am the sole American here or in the neighborhood period, and along with the African family across the street and a Ukrainian couple we are the diversity in this pocket. Even some shopkeepers downtown introduce me as "the" American and not "an" American. My dentist once produced another for me in her waiting room, wife of a Brit who lived in the Golden Ghetto a few miles down the highway. So, down there I might be "an" American.

Quote:
I don't think that's what people in the US mean when they're talking about "diversity". For example - here where I live in Florida (which has twice the population of Portugal) - 17% of the population is black - 25% is hispanic - 20% was born outside the US - and 28% don't speak English as a first language at home:
No, for sure. Racial difference has been and is a core concern of Americans. It has been less so in Portugal, where it is about ethnicity and language too....but given the demise of the colonial empire in the 70's race assumed an increasing importance. Also most immigration of any kind did not begin until the post-Salazar Revolution of the Carnations in the mid-70's. So, the entire idea of immigrants is barely forty years old in this country compared to centuries of importing slaves in the U.S., and the movement of Mexicans into the SW, and the more recent various waves. Given the very recent history of an immigration flow into this country, I would bet almost few immigrants and their kids use Portuguese as their primary language at home.

Quote:
Your idea of diversity is pretty laughable IMO. Robyn
Your American opinion, and you are stuck with it. Americans are color obsessed, and for good reason.

My "diversity" thing based primarily on skin color and secondarily on language was like yours when I lived in NYC.....it is, after all THE basic American idea of it.

When I moved here I did not have what it takes to tell the Portuguese how they had it all wrong. How they needed to change not only their conceptions, but their history as well. I did it their way, and I chose to live in a town with the Portuguese experience of "diversity," which includes all the post-Revolutionary immigrants of a different race and a different ethnicity and culture. I had traveled around the southern part of the country, and had I wanted to live in a "pure" Portuguese town or small city with almost no racial or ethnic diversity I would have known where to settle. I settled where I did specifically for the mix as it exists in this culture - not Florida where you live now, nor NYC where I used to live, but here and now. If I had the bucks, I suppose I could try to pay some of these Moldavans, Ukrainians and white Brazilians to wear blackface for that American diversity look by darkening the neighborhood melanin. But, alas, income still rules my roost.

There is a gentle irony in this, in that the fewest people I have ever known here are the ones you would expect I might know the most of - the English. The language convenience after all, and the increasingly common cultural attitudes. But, as so many hold themselves apart from the mix, the diversity, it has been the opposite as I won't live in an English only neighborhood.
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Old 09-04-2016, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
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I think that in the US - economic diversity is not mentioned as much as it should be. Most of us tend to live in income segregated "ghettoes". From your description - if I am understanding you correctly - that seems to be the case in Portugal too - at least the part where you live ("The majority of the neighborhood is Portuguese, my particular area is working class - the resident retirees are Germans and me - everyone else of whatever color or kind works."). Note that over the years - I have observed that higher income people in many parts of the world - including the US - are more tolerant of racial diversity and ethnic diversity than lower income people. That's certainly true of where I live. I don't care who moves in in my neighborhood for the most part (assuming they take care of their property). Because you're basically talking about doctors/lawyers/other professionals/business people/etc. People in lower income "working class" areas worry that a new "diverse" neighbor might be an unwed mother with 5 kids using a section 8 voucher. Not necessarily a desirable neighbor.

When you talk about language "diversity" - I think the Portuguese attitude - that people should learn to speak the language - is a good one. Wish more people here in the US thought like that.

As for the Brazilians in Portugal - I assume the racial differences/classifications are similar to those in other countries where you had intermarriage/child bearing among white people - indigenous peoples - and African slaves. Still - the number of Brazilians in Portugal is relatively small - 25% of the foreign born population - and the total foreign born population was only 3% of the total population a few years ago (although it could be higher today):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilians_in_Portugal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Portugal

Also - Portugal seems to have been fortunate in escaping the waves of immigration/refugees that are proving problematic in other European countries. E.g.

Sweden

I'm not sure why that is. Especially because Portugal seems to be welcoming the refugees:

Refugees start arriving in force in Portugal as government says

Perhaps it's because Portugal's economy isn't very strong and/or that its welfare benefits are fairly stingy. Or maybe it's because they don't want to learn how to speak Portuguese. What do you think is going on? Robyn

P.S. Catholicism still seems to play a role in Portuguese politics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Portugal
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Old 09-04-2016, 04:26 PM
mlb
 
Location: North Monterey County
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"Religious" diversity would be nice.

Tends to weigh heavy in the legislature.......
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Old 09-04-2016, 05:08 PM
 
12,703 posts, read 14,081,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
I think that in the US - economic diversity is not mentioned as much as it should be. Most of us tend to live in income segregated "ghettoes". From your description - if I am understanding you correctly - that seems to be the case in Portugal too - at least the part where you live ("The majority of the neighborhood is Portuguese, my particular area is working class - the resident retirees are Germans and me - everyone else of whatever color or kind works.").
I think I dragged this thread off topic by bringing up my post-U.S. move, and perhaps we are now really doing it. So, I will keep this short.

Portugal was a country overwhelmingly "pure" Portuguese, except for its own small resident gypsy population, with a traditional society, conservative-fascist government, almost no foreign residents outside of a few in Estoril - exiles in some cases. Revolution in '75 and trying to decide on form of govt. until '85, and immigration only dealt with until '96 when the borders were opened to the EU, and of course the citizens of former African and Asian colonies were coming. In the last 20 years immigrants are 5% of the pop. Concentrated along the south coast towns and Lisbon and Porto, the areas that offer work.

It makes for a peculiar situation white Moldavan, Ukrainians, Germans, Brits with their non-Portuguese backgrounds and languages are initially more arresting and disconcerting than a black skinned man from Angola who speaks Portuguese, and may well have a recent memory of being in the Portuguese milieu when his country was a colony, or a brown-skinned woman from Brazil who also speaks the language. Thus, unlike the U.S., skin color is not the strongest signal that - whoops - we have a case of diversity here. It is those cultural habits and language that have not been part of the Portuguese experience until beginning twenty years ago, and the white face does not necessarily carry a reassuring message - it can say unbending foreigner with money.

Quote:
Also - Portugal seems to have been fortunate in escaping the waves of immigration/refugees that are proving problematic in other European countries.
Yes, it has missed the desperate ones who try to cross the Med. Our south coast is an Atlantic one and far from the coast of northern Africa - riskier by far. And the country offers zero for someone from Mali or the like, no jobs for you!

As for the current Middle Eastern refugees...they are being farmed out to the same areas of the country as the immigrants come to, the eastern and southern coastal cities. I really wonder if in the 18 months they are evidently allowed to adjust if they can make it. If given a choice between hiring an unskilled Angolan guy off the plane who speaks the language and may well have done manual labor at home, and a Syrian guy who is grappling with Portuguese and may have been a shopkeeper, the former probably has a better chance of getting a leg up faster.

Quote:
P.S. Catholicism still seems to play a role in Portuguese politics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Portugal
It is a bit misleading because it ignore the fact that the other two R.C. bugaboos, divorce and gay rights, including marriage went sailing through despite the formal opposition of the R.C. church. Religion is stronger in the North, and individual politicians with an eye cocked in that direction will pay polite brief attention. But the unicameral legislature doesn't waste its time doing the same and the church rarely attempts to organize demos and the like. The former president used his veto on the abortion reform after it was passed, and this year the unicameral legislature passed an even more liberal version over his veto, which he signed. The influence of the church seems to be heavily regional, and the church does not try to flex muscle often at all. I was far more used to hearing the R.C. church speak out than happens here. In the South the church will hand over derelict churches to the government to renovate and use as public venues, and then the formal ownership is acknowledged to be the church despite the fact that the church has nothing to say, it seems, about the concerts and events that go on there. And I read what is probably one of the papers with the best coverage, and statements by the Archbishop and other folks are extremely rare. Sunday mass is broadcast on TV, but the services have really thin attendance.

Last edited by kevxu; 09-04-2016 at 05:49 PM..
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Old 09-05-2016, 07:36 AM
 
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Excellent synopsis of Portugal kevxu! I can't rep you again unfortunately.
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Old 09-06-2016, 04:02 PM
 
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Having spent 26 years in two of the most diverse cities in the country and become more than well acquainted with the problems associated with that diversity, I am quite happy to have a found a place with a 98% homogeneous population and a very low crime rate. The only diversity I am really interested in any more is culinary and musical and it's quite easy to drive to that. Adios diversity.
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Old 09-06-2016, 06:33 PM
 
Location: NY in body, Mayberry in spirit.
2,692 posts, read 1,770,877 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer0101 View Post
Having spent 26 years in two of the most diverse cities in the country and become more than well acquainted with the problems associated with that diversity, I am quite happy to have a found a place with a 98% homogeneous population and a very low crime rate. The only diversity I am really interested in any more is culinary and musical and it's quite easy to drive to that. Adios diversity.
Ditto, Ditto, Ditto!
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Old 09-09-2016, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
13,889 posts, read 25,327,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevxu View Post
In the U.S. diversity is skin color and to somewhat lesser extent, perhaps, language. That's your lens and it was the one I used when describing my neighborhood experiences in NYC. Given the history of the many separate countries in Europe diversity goes way beyond skin color and includes ethnicity and language to a greater and deeper degree than in the present-day U.S.

As for a breakdown of the Brazilians, look at the Brazilian censuses. A very large percentage are black Afro-Brazilians and mixed race. The categories have traditionally been so fine that the old censuses are baffling, and then especially as the classifications get redone. Blacks and what are now called Pardos/mixed-blooded not classified as white are almost 50 percent of the population, so of course many of the Brazilians here are black and brown skin colored and not white. The Africans are blacks and fewer mixed blooded people from the former colonies - in my town they are construction laborers, shop clerks, restaurant cooks, shop owners, school teachers. None of the cleaners who come to buildings around here are black or brown, maybe on other streets.



It wouldn't do to keep your American skin-color lenses on here when looking for diversity, because the Portuguese and other foreigners would soon remove them for you. As in America, language ability gets you plunked in the diversity pile immediately and is very important, your ethnicity as well.

The outsiders:

For all of their presence Brits are fringe people, their money is good but their diversity cred sucks - most cannot speak the language and do not want to. Many clump in Brit golden ghettoes - they are here for "Not for Portugal but for Britain with palm trees/sun" is the common verbal backhand from Portuguese. Add to that the fact that many are discourteous about slagging the Portuguese in front of those who have just waited on them in English - supremely arrogant. This has caused a few hideous public scenes and the rumors of these spreads rapidly and is repeated often. But they are loved for their spending, and after all...."Oh, the English..." with a tolerant smile.

You mentioned religion. The practice of Roman Catholicism in the south of the country is very slim and of almost no importance to anyone. The small groups of Evangelicals are more consistently religious. Very few people in the South consider religion when thinking of what you call diversity. No one, but the evangelicals and the JW's, ever bring up the topic of religion.

Ciganos - resident Portuguese gypsies (no, they are not Roma) function as their own subculture, though they speak Portuguese and live in their own neighborhood.

Among the Romanians you see in the figures are included the Roma (Romanian gypsies) too, thoroughly disliked by the Portuguese ciganos and the Portuguese. And no one wants them living near them.

The mixers:

Gemans live mixed in with the Portuguese, and they can because they take pains to learn the language. Ukrainians are super-swift at the language and live mixed in. There are an increasing number of Chinese from the mainland and they are store owners in town who bought Golden Visas, and because of their businesses they labor to learn the language, the earlier Chinese are from Macao and a city on the mainland, which I forget, they speak excellent Portuguese and run restaurants. Indians, but I am only aware of what two families do - one owns a Portuguese restaurant, the other owns a building firm. And Venezuelans, who to my knowledge are thin on the ground in town, though not in Lisbon, and how they get on with their South American Spanish I do not know.

The majority of the neighborhood is Portuguese, my particular area is working class - the resident retirees are Germans and me - everyone else of whatever color or kind works. In addition to the dark skinned people who are what obsesses Americans as diversity, the diversity is the residents from Germany, China, the Ukraine and Modava but they are mostly bilingual, but none I have met speak Portuguese at home or among themselves...there is one full time resident English couple who speak Portuguese well - ethnicity ranks in importance the way in did in the late 19th and early 20th centuries in the U.S. My street has a peculiar twist in it that forms a pocket which isolates three building; and I am the sole American here or in the neighborhood period, and along with the African family across the street and a Ukrainian couple we are the diversity in this pocket. Even some shopkeepers downtown introduce me as "the" American and not "an" American. My dentist once produced another for me in her waiting room, wife of a Brit who lived in the Golden Ghetto a few miles down the highway. So, down there I might be "an" American.



No, for sure. Racial difference has been and is a core concern of Americans. It has been less so in Portugal, where it is about ethnicity and language too....but given the demise of the colonial empire in the 70's race assumed an increasing importance. Also most immigration of any kind did not begin until the post-Salazar Revolution of the Carnations in the mid-70's. So, the entire idea of immigrants is barely forty years old in this country compared to centuries of importing slaves in the U.S., and the movement of Mexicans into the SW, and the more recent various waves. Given the very recent history of an immigration flow into this country, I would bet almost few immigrants and their kids use Portuguese as their primary language at home.



Your American opinion, and you are stuck with it. Americans are color obsessed, and for good reason.

My "diversity" thing based primarily on skin color and secondarily on language was like yours when I lived in NYC.....it is, after all THE basic American idea of it.

When I moved here I did not have what it takes to tell the Portuguese how they had it all wrong. How they needed to change not only their conceptions, but their history as well. I did it their way, and I chose to live in a town with the Portuguese experience of "diversity," which includes all the post-Revolutionary immigrants of a different race and a different ethnicity and culture. I had traveled around the southern part of the country, and had I wanted to live in a "pure" Portuguese town or small city with almost no racial or ethnic diversity I would have known where to settle. I settled where I did specifically for the mix as it exists in this culture - not Florida where you live now, nor NYC where I used to live, but here and now. If I had the bucks, I suppose I could try to pay some of these Moldavans, Ukrainians and white Brazilians to wear blackface for that American diversity look by darkening the neighborhood melanin. But, alas, income still rules my roost.

There is a gentle irony in this, in that the fewest people I have ever known here are the ones you would expect I might know the most of - the English. The language convenience after all, and the increasingly common cultural attitudes. But, as so many hold themselves apart from the mix, the diversity, it has been the opposite as I won't live in an English only neighborhood.
I love the Brit Golden Ghettos statement. I have rented a few times in those communities! They are rather a blight on the landscape but the rooftop terraces are amazing. You are right about the language too. I spoke more Spanish and Portuguese than any of my UK neighbors.
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Old 09-10-2016, 08:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondy View Post
True, but what you are missing, is that most of the crime in the south is located in areas that that have high poverty rates or are significantly ethnically diverse from middle/upper middle class Causcasion areas.
........."high poverty rates".....

Why is the crime rate much lower for towns with high poverty that are predominately white than for towns with high poverty that are predominately black ?


There is a huge difference in how blacks and whites react to poverty when they are living in it !
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