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Old 12-22-2015, 08:59 AM
 
29,967 posts, read 35,046,973 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda_d View Post
One of the ironies of gold is that invariably the people who hold or advocate holding gold as an investment are almost always fearful of currency and equities and often refer to the modern financial system as a "ponzi scheme" ... and yet they themselves are pouring money into an ultimate ponzi scheme: something that has absolutely no use or value unless they can convince somebody to buy it from them because they're afraid the modern financial system is a "ponzi scheme".
They also are offering to exchange their highly valuable Gold in exchange for your shakey currency. I find that ironic. Shouldn't they be hoarding it for themselves instead of exchanging it for what they say is worthless? I assume since the ads still have their periodic run that someone is buying at the retail level and some are in or near retirement and it is working out for some. So hopefully they will share like folks do about other retirement investment strategies they have used for better or worse.
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:02 AM
 
72,579 posts, read 72,452,347 times
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if they are selling it then they are traders , not buying it for insurance .

i have done quite well trading in and out of gold this year but i have no use at this point for gold as insurance . strictly a trading vehicle along with xom and kmi .

i alternate almost weekly between them .
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Backwoods of Maine
7,138 posts, read 8,211,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
if you held it a typical accumulation stage spanning decades like you do conventional investments you would have lagged way behind with that money .
To hold a position in anything over decades is asking for trouble. I keep tabs on all my investments at least every 3 months. That's why I didn't lose much with the gold...caught the decline early. Almost all my aquaintances with the "buy and hold" mentality lost their shirts in '08; not me (very small loss).

Really, I don't see a big difference in what the investment actually is - gold, real estate, bonds, commodities, currencies, equities - you can win or lose in all of them. To trash one asset class because you don't agree with some people's ideas about it, seems silly. Money is money, and I'll take it!
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:09 AM
 
72,579 posts, read 72,452,347 times
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the diffeerence is you can hold an index fund forever and look 20 or 30 years later and be very happy . in fact no reason you can't hold any diversified fund decades , i have .

investing in real estate and diversified stocks is more about time in the markets not timing them .

odds are you can't find a 20 year period a diversified fund didn't produce nice gains .

you can't find a 20 year period or longer where odds are gold didn't lag . it isn't about time in the markets at all . commodity cycles take far longer to come around and some times they can exceed your lifetime .

Last edited by mathjak107; 12-22-2015 at 10:11 AM..
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:13 AM
 
8,202 posts, read 6,173,663 times
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I can see buying gold as a physical alternative to investments that exist only in a computer somewhere. In this case, there could be some validity to having physical investments during a market downturn.

What I don't understand is when people invest in gold for when the SHTF and civilization collapses. Some of these people think that their gold will retain value when the currency is worthless. If civilization has collapsed, no one will give a damn about your gold doubloons. In that situation, the economy will run on food, fuel and guns/ammunition.
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Old 12-22-2015, 09:56 AM
 
72,579 posts, read 72,452,347 times
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you know gold bugs though , they conjure up these visions in their head of last man standing scenario's and they are buying there way to freedom .

like i said there are story's out there about that happening in world war ii but i bet most are just story's .

anything valuable was just taken .
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Old 12-22-2015, 11:40 AM
 
8,042 posts, read 5,116,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor'Eastah View Post
To hold a position in anything over decades is asking for trouble. I keep tabs on all my investments at least every 3 months. That's why I didn't lose much with the gold...caught the decline early. Almost all my aquaintances with the "buy and hold" mentality lost their shirts in '08; not me (very small loss).

Really, I don't see a big difference in what the investment actually is - gold, real estate, bonds, commodities, currencies, equities - you can win or lose in all of them. To trash one asset class because you don't agree with some people's ideas about it, seems silly. Money is money, and I'll take it!
I would opine that the difference between an "investment" and a "trade" is that the latter seeks to exploit trends and fashions, temporary circumstances and imbalances and inefficiencies, while the former aims to hold something with intrinsic and rising value. It's certainly possible to trade and to speculate with something that happens to have intrinsic value. But it's not possible to buy-and-hold indefinitely something that only oscillates or goes from boom to bust and boom again.

So many people regard the stock market as a gamble, or a mere trading opportunity, because they don't regard stocks as having intrinsic value. I can't deny that there's money to be made by deft and limber buying and selling of stocks. I won't argue here about market-timing. But I will most vehemently assert that for a true investment, timing is not necessary. Timing might improve your returns, but you don't need timing to make good returns. If you DO need timing to make good returns, then it's not inherently an investment.

Gold would have been eminently helpful in a situation such as in Russia in the 1990s, where the economy was unstable, the currency had no historical or political backing, investment-vehicles were unreliable and unregulated, and even basic bank-savings was not guaranteed. Gold wasn't a hedge against doomsday, but it was a great hedge against national political instability and against a broad societal misunderstanding of how capitalism is supposed to work. American gold-bugs in effect are thinking of modern America as if it were Russia in the 1990s. They see - or claim to see - the same rampant mismanagement, lawlessness and jungle-mentality.

Diversified buy-and-hold investment isn't the path to unbridled riches. It won't make you a billionaire within your lifetime, unless you already have hundreds or at least dozens of millions. But it IS a means of retaining and growing wealth. It is predicated on the idea that society is basically OK, that while winners and losers are inevitable, the machinery of modern capitalism basically works OK. And it's predicated on the idea that some things really do have intrinsic value, that they really are worthy of being held indefinitely, without strife or dread or the necessity of delicate maneuver.

Last edited by ohio_peasant; 12-22-2015 at 01:02 PM..
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Old 12-22-2015, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
7,841 posts, read 7,378,081 times
Reputation: 13779
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
I would opine that the difference between an "investment" and a "trade" is that the latter seeks to exploit trends and fashions, temporary circumstances and imbalances and inefficiencies, while the former aims to hold something with intrinsic and rising value. It's certainly possible trade and to speculate with something that happens to have intrinsic value. But it's not possible to buy-and-hold indefinitely something that only oscillates or goes from boom to bust and boom again.

So many people regard the stock market as a gamble, or a mere trading opportunity, because they don't regard stocks as having intrinsic value. I can't deny that there's money to be made by deft and limber buying and selling of stocks. I won't argue here about market-timing. But I will most vehemently assert that for a true investment, timing is not necessary. Timing might improve your returns, but you don't need timing to make good returns. If you DO need timing to make good returns, then it's not inherently an investment.

Gold would have been eminently helpful in a situation such as in Russia in the 1990s, where the economy was unstable, the currency had no historical or political backing, investment-vehicles were unreliable and unregulated, and even basic bank-savings was not guaranteed. Gold wasn't a hedge against doomsday, but it was a great hedge against national political instability and against a broad societal misunderstanding of how capitalism is supposed to work. American gold-bugs in effect are thinking of modern America as if it were Russia in the 1990s. They see - or claim to see - the same rampant mismanagement, lawlessness and jungle-mentality.

Diversified buy-and-hold investment isn't the path to unbridled riches. It won't make you a billionaire within your lifetime, unless you already have hundreds or at least dozens of millions. But it IS a means of retaining and growing wealth. It is predicated on the idea that society is basically OK, that while winners and losers are inevitable, the machinery of modern capitalism basically works OK. And it's predicated on the idea that some things really do have intrinsic value, that they really are worthy of being held indefinitely, without strife or dread or the necessity of delicate maneuver.
Excellent post!

I think the best American parallel to Russia in the 1990s was the US in the 19th century and very early 20th century after Andrew Jackson killed Hamilton's version of a central bank, the Bank of the US, and before the creation of the Federal Reserve system. The goldbugs share not only a fear of doomsday, they share a loathing for the Federal Reserve despite the fact that abandoning gold for "fiat currency" and modern financial practices, including regulation, that they loathe so much has resulted in a very stable economic system over the last 80 years, with the 2008 recession the only truly precarious economic downturn. All the other recessions were, in fact, relatively mild. Even 2008, when compared to the regular (about every 15-20 years) and calamitous economic collapses of the 19th and pre-World War I 20th centuries, was a cake-walk. Orgies of currency and land speculation and then collapse, market manipulation, price gouging, and general exploitation of resources and people were rampant in 19th century America. The Great Depression was the last gasp of the old, "wild west" mentality that survived into the 20th century, and the bankers, economists, and financial advisers learned from that experience. It's why today the idea of doing away with the Federal Reserve and returning to the gold standard aren't even seriously discussed except by the far Right Wing fringe that wants to take the country back to some mythical 18th or 19th century "golden age" that never actually existed.
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Old 12-22-2015, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Charleston, SC
1,381 posts, read 781,988 times
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I hold some numismatic coins, both gold and silver. These are just for my own enjoyment and not for an investment -- they are not really a liquid investment vehicle. But just collecting coins has kept me in tune with the general direction of Precious Metal Prices, and I was able to play the overall trend using a Mutual Fund. I bought in around the low point in 2003 and rode the Bull Cycle up until summer of 2012. I didn't capture the first dollar up and I left the party a little too late......but let's just say it was a "nice ride"

The real nice part of the run-up started in 2008, when the feces was hitting the fan in other investments.
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Old 12-22-2015, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Cody, WY
9,626 posts, read 11,017,893 times
Reputation: 19357
If anyone is actually interested in a discussion of gold and other PMs. I suggest the Kitco website and forum. Those who view us as idiots may be a bit disappointed , but people who seek or who have found wealth will find something rather pleasant and useful.

Gold, Silver, Gold Price, Silver Price, Gold Rate, Gold News | Kitco
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