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Old 01-22-2016, 05:56 PM
 
Location: LTCShop.com
236 posts, read 113,299 times
Reputation: 151

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
without inflation protection which the hybrids do not have they may end up useless off in the future and cover little .

around here so much cash would have to be dumped in to a hybrid policy that if i just kept that much money invested more aggressively just a piece of the return would likely pay the premium for a real ltc policy .
I agree.
the hybrids rarely make sense.
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Old 01-22-2016, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Columbia SC
8,984 posts, read 7,753,935 times
Reputation: 12191
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTCShop View Post
Selhars, please don't be offended by what I'm about to say, but I've never understood this way of thinking about LTC insurance. (e.g. The idea that that the premiums should be returned or that a death benefit should be paid if the policy is not used before you die.)

This way of thinking is not common with any other type of insurance.

For example, if you don't make a claim on your medical insurance, do they return your premiums? Does your homeowner's policy return your premium if you never make a claim? Or your auto policy?

I ask you this in all sincerity. What is it that is different about LTC that would make you want the premiums to be returned to your heirs if you died and you never needed long term care?

I'm just trying to understand your perspective.




sao
While I am not a liker of nor purchaser of LTC, LTCShop makes a valid point on why sould premiums being returned if not needed. If they were, insurance rates would be astronomical.
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Old 01-22-2016, 09:44 PM
 
Location: LTCShop.com
236 posts, read 113,299 times
Reputation: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by johngolf View Post
While I am not a liker of nor purchaser of LTC, LTCShop makes a valid point on why sould premiums being returned if not needed. If they were, insurance rates would be astronomical.

exactly, John.

imagine what a homeowner's policy would cost if the homeowner's policy paid a death benefit equal to the value of the home if you'd never made a big homeowner's claim. essentially, you'd be buying a homeowner's policy AND a life insurance policy.

And that's why hybrid policies are usually 2x to 4x the cost of a straight LTCi policy because they are both a life insurance policy AND a long term care policy. Since the insurer's risk is much higher, the premium is much higher.

Usually, someone can get a straight LTCi policy and a separate life insurance policy for about the same price as buying a "combo" policy. If you need life insurance, you're better off with two separate policies because that's the only way to guarantee that the life insurance will pay. If you only need long term care coverage then why pay 2x to 4x the cost just to have a life/ltc hybrid policy.



But the question still remains unanswered. Why would someone only consider LTC coverage if the policy would return the premiums if care was not needed? Why does that question come up when discussing LTC insurance but NO OTHER INSURANCE!?!?!?!?


sao

Last edited by LTCShop; 01-22-2016 at 10:26 PM..
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Old 01-23-2016, 02:49 AM
 
71,700 posts, read 71,801,099 times
Reputation: 49265
what is funny is the odds of using a policy for in home care , assisted living or a home are thousands of times greater then your house burning down or dying at a young age and having term life insurance .

the problem with hybrids are the actual cost in gains you give up to own one is huge compared to have you invested that money and used a piece of your return for that premium for a full ltc policy that inflation adjusts every year . .

long term care can be like trying to be a little bit pregnant . not having enough coverage and having to go on medicaid may defeat the whole purpose of the hybrid in the first place.

the fact inflation in long term care costs have been insane and hybrids have no inflation protection could make them useless 20 30 years from now
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Old 01-23-2016, 07:50 AM
 
Location: LTCShop.com
236 posts, read 113,299 times
Reputation: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
what is funny is the odds of using a policy for in home care , assisted living or a home are thousands of times greater then your house burning down or dying at a young age and having term life insurance .

the problem with hybrids are the actual cost in gains you give up to own one is huge compared to have you invested that money and used a piece of your return for that premium for a full ltc policy that inflation adjusts every year . .

long term care can be like trying to be a little bit pregnant . not having enough coverage and having to go on medicaid may defeat the whole purpose of the hybrid in the first place.

the fact inflation in long term care costs have been insane and hybrids have no inflation protection could make them useless 20 30 years from now


you are 100% correct on all points.
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:47 PM
 
29,784 posts, read 34,880,403 times
Reputation: 11710
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
what is funny is the odds of using a policy for in home care , assisted living or a home are thousands of times greater then your house burning down or dying at a young age and having term life insurance .

the problem with hybrids are the actual cost in gains you give up to own one is huge compared to have you invested that money and used a piece of your return for that premium for a full ltc policy that inflation adjusts every year . .

long term care can be like trying to be a little bit pregnant . not having enough coverage and having to go on medicaid may defeat the whole purpose of the hybrid in the first place.

the fact inflation in long term care costs have been insane and hybrids have no inflation protection could make them useless 20 30 years from now
Bada Bing!
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:56 PM
 
29,784 posts, read 34,880,403 times
Reputation: 11710
I don't care if I never get a cent back from my policy or my wife's policy for nursing home care. We are hoping not to, not to and not to. That is the goal. The home/community medical care part if we use that ok that is more tolerable. For us it is insurance against and not investment for. It is also protection for one of us if the other needs it and we won't be forced to divorce or give up assets etc etc. Getting it at age 52 sixteen years ago is probably very different than at age 52. Actuarial tables have changed and the relative cost has perhaps gone up. Again if you belong to a professional association of any size and they offer LTC as part of a group rate, investigate it. Your cohort group for the insurance may have a lower risk profile than society at large and that could well be reflected in the premium charged. Also getting it at an earlier age helps you to avoid health issues that might emerge prevent you from getting insurance.

Last edited by TuborgP; 01-23-2016 at 01:09 PM..
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Old 01-23-2016, 01:01 PM
 
29,784 posts, read 34,880,403 times
Reputation: 11710
A good read on the topic:
Long Term Care | Insurance - Consumer Reports

Quote:
In the past five years, 10 of the top 20 insurers (by sales) have stopped selling new long-term-care policies, according to LIMRA International, an insurance industry research company. Major carriers such as MetLife and Unum are among them, and [b]last March Prudential said it would stop selling the policies to individuals, although it still sells plans through employers and affinity groups.[/B
]

Groups can provide a known and consistant data point for the underwriters and can help maintain margins and source of future sales. Part of the problem for insurers are when people stop paying the premiums because they can't afford them. I suspect a group with good health stats along with good retirement financial stats might be a desirable group to market to. Also those employers and groups if large enough can put pressure on the insurers to contain cost and avoid bad publicity.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:04 PM
 
6,885 posts, read 7,289,708 times
Reputation: 9791
Rant coming… Of course, no offense taken. You are quite right about how technically LTCI is like other kinds of insurance -- you pay for coverage because you hope to avoid a devastating financial payout.

BUT to be fair, in most places (i believe) car insurance is mandatory, You-Know-Who forced mandatory health insurance down our throats, and if you have a mortgage homeowners insurance is a must......and LTCI is OPTIONAL.

Please educate me....IS THERE a car insurance or homeowners rider I can get, that will pay something back IF I never use the policy???.... because IF there IS, I might be willing to pay for that option.

And given that there ARE LTCIs with that option, I’m willing to consider paying for it...mostly because as far as I know – those other kinds of insurance do NOT offer those options.

Ok here's the rantL
And I DO feel insured to death...how many darn things in life do I have to insure?
Car Insurance, health insurance, life insurance, homeowners insurance, disability insurance ...now LTCI.....

Well guess what? (and please don’t you take offense).... I’ve already got about 500.00 a month going out in insurance premiums for one kind of coverage or another.... and the additional LTCI would be the most expensive.

It seems (and I know it’s not so) that every time you turn around you’ve got someone pitching some damned insurance...there’s cancer insurance, ID theft insurance, even insurance on a frigging cell phone.... (policies I don’t have by the way). PLUS, although they're not technically "insurances" I don't think) home warranty and car warranty coverages (which I don't have either and never would) which some people try to pitch….

And by the time I pay taxes, and if I had a car payment which I don't…but I am saving about 10% of my salary for retirement. how much totally discretionary money I am supposed to have left to LIVE ON and do what I WANT and NOT have already allocated for 10 different things before I even get my pay check!

And again, I may get LTCI at some point....just not right now....
Clearly with THIS particular insurance…at this point, I’m willing to take my chances in NOT having it.
Also, if I don’t have it no one is hurt but me. There’s no direct enforceable “penalty” for NOT having it like car insurance or health insurance.
The bottom line is I don't want another expense right now….OKAY! (just kidding)
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Old 01-24-2016, 01:12 AM
 
10,818 posts, read 8,069,111 times
Reputation: 17029
Just for perspective, the figures and logic presented by mathjak - for whom I have much respect - have zero bearing for folks who live outside of NY or PA.
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