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Old 02-25-2016, 12:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
That is why many say that buying sooner than later is the best time while health is still good. I have learned some great CCRC info of late including talking with a house guest who is on the board of a quality CCRC. They are former neighbors and we have discussed over the years and his thinking has evolved. The role of LTC plans is interesting. In some cases you are required to buy upon admission to help cover the cost of higher cost placements after independent living.
TuborgP, would you please share with me what you learned re the CCRC information?
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Old 02-25-2016, 01:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LookingatFL View Post
TuborgP, would you please share with me what you learned re the CCRC information?
I mentioned in a thread that we had visited and were looking at a really nice new facility that didn't have a buy in fee but had a monthly fee with a yearly lease. We met with them and it was a new model that they were trying. What I found is that it is being driven by the same financial realities confronting everyone in this low interest rate environment. Just giving them 300K doesn't work like it use to. They can't generate the revenues off of a dated ROI model just like pensions. Annuities/CD's purchased 10 years ago had higher benefits. I found out there are other newer CCRC's using the same model etc etc. Also my friend has his MIL in the same facility he is on the board for and at one point a few years ago they were really struggling. They are now doing well. It is a thirty year old program with a top reputation but the world has changed. Folk now want two bed rooms, more space and luxury. They changed their marketing, renovated and created more two bed room units and upgraded them to be more luxurious. This can include granite counters etc. Folks want in a CCRC what they had in their home as this is their new independent living world. The buzz word became luxury and as he noted the people who can afford a good CCRC are sorta use to that. I need to check with him but I thought he said that LTC insurance was built into the monthly fee for independent living at a cost of several thousand per month depending on age etc etc. In a thread on CCRC's Robyn shared a link from the federal government that gave the official federal scores for nursing homes. The couple of five star homes I checked were in CCRC communities. Which led to the question was this the norm or just a small sample. When I asked my friend he shared that the one he is on the board of has a top rated nursing home and admission is only through the CCRC. He felt that was more normal than folks realized. This helps limit if not eliminate Medicaid beds and serves to restrict access to their Nursing Care Units. Many people with means are looking for a slam dunk Bada Bing done and chill approach to aging in place and having quality care to the end. CCRC's offer that possibility and after living in their independent living for five years or whatever it is now your home and you are never really leaving your home and community. Also it enables couples to stay in close proximity to each other as they age etc etc. It is a money decision and doing it right isn't cheap.

Last edited by TuborgP; 02-25-2016 at 01:52 PM..
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Old 02-25-2016, 01:53 PM
 
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https://www.brookdale.com/senior-liv...ons/life-care/

Quote:
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Old 02-25-2016, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,935,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
I mentioned in a thread that we had visited and were looking at a really nice new facility that didn't have a buy in fee but had a monthly fee with a yearly lease. We met with them and it was a new model that they were trying. What I found is that it is being driven by the same financial realities confronting everyone in this low interest rate environment. Just giving them 300K doesn't work like it use to. They can't generate the revenues off of a dated ROI model just like pensions. Annuities/CD's purchased 10 years ago had higher benefits. I found out there are other newer CCRC's using the same model etc etc. Also my friend has his MIL in the same facility he is on the board for and at one point a few years ago they were really struggling. They are now doing well. It is a thirty year old program with a top reputation but the world has changed. Folk now want two bed rooms, more space and luxury. They changed their marketing, renovated and created more two bed room units and upgraded them to be more luxurious. This can include granite counters etc. Folks want in a CCRC what they had in their home as this is their new independent living world. The buzz word became luxury and as he noted the people who can afford a good CCRC are sorta use to that. I need to check with him but I thought he said that LTC insurance was built into the monthly fee for independent living at a cost of several thousand per month depending on age etc etc. In a thread on CCRC's Robyn shared a link from the federal government that gave the official federal scores for nursing homes. The couple of five star homes I checked were in CCRC communities. Which led to the question was this the norm or just a small sample. When I asked my friend he shared that the one he is on the board of has a top rated nursing home and admission is only through the CCRC. He felt that was more normal than folks realized. This helps limit if not eliminate Medicaid beds and serves to restrict access to their Nursing Care Units. Many people with means are looking for a slam dunk Bada Bing done and chill approach to aging in place and having quality care to the end. CCRC's offer that possibility and after living in their independent living for five years or whatever it is now your home and you are never really leaving your home and community. Also it enables couples to stay in close proximity to each other as they age etc etc. It is a money decision and doing it right isn't cheap.
So what does it wind up costing with your having to buy LTCI to "get in"?

I really can't understand the concept of a CCRC where you have to buy/keep LTCI in effect to buy entry. After all - isn't that what CCRCs were originally designed to do? Give you one price (with perhaps various monthly fees) for different levels of care?

And - if you have to buy LTCI - why lock yourself into a CCRC? Where you might not need a higher level of care until 10-20+ years down the road. And who knows what its ALF or SNF will look like then?

I think most CCRCs aren't swell - and one where you have to buy LTCI as well sucks. It's just a lousy investment. And a lousy life plan IMO. Even if the whole thing works "on paper" - what happens when all the people who signed on can't afford what they signed on for in the next financial crisis? What if they can afford to pay the rent - but not their LTCI premiums? It's like a condo horror story - on steroids.

I realize there is a great desire for us seniors to put everything in a nice neat box - and hope that someone else will take care of all this stuff for us down the road. But - for most of us - that just isn't going to happen. Still - unless we pay a lot of money up front - into anything - we can't get hurt that much. Put six figures into a CCRC and you can get hurt - a ton. Robyn
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Old 02-25-2016, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
My father has lived in a Brookdale independent senior living rental place here for 10 years now. It has been satisfactory as a rental (although it has gotten worse in some respects the last couple of years best I can tell). I wouldn't give Brookdale 10 cents - much less tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars - in advance - to do anything for me in my old age. I wouldn't use the ALF units where my father lives if he needed assisted living. I have no experience with Brookdale SNF facilities (my father's place doesn't have a SNF). But - since I wouldn't use the Brookdale ALF stuff - doubt any Brookdale SNF would be any better.

Like I said - we've been pretty happy with the independent living rental. My aunt is similarly happy in a Brookdale independent living rental in Westchester County (NY). So - IMO - renting is ok. Buying into a Brookdale CCRC - no way. Robyn
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Old 02-25-2016, 08:33 PM
 
29,782 posts, read 34,876,173 times
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Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
So what does it wind up costing with your having to buy LTCI to "get in"?

I really can't understand the concept of a CCRC where you have to buy/keep LTCI in effect to buy entry. After all - isn't that what CCRCs were originally designed to do? Give you one price (with perhaps various monthly fees) for different levels of care?

And - if you have to buy LTCI - why lock yourself into a CCRC? Where you might not need a higher level of care until 10-20+ years down the road. And who knows what its ALF or SNF will look like then?

I think most CCRCs aren't swell - and one where you have to buy LTCI as well sucks. It's just a lousy investment. And a lousy life plan IMO. Even if the whole thing works "on paper" - what happens when all the people who signed on can't afford what they signed on for in the next financial crisis? What if they can afford to pay the rent - but not their LTCI premiums? It's like a condo horror story - on steroids.

I realize there is a great desire for us seniors to put everything in a nice neat box - and hope that someone else will take care of all this stuff for us down the road. But - for most of us - that just isn't going to happen. Still - unless we pay a lot of money up front - into anything - we can't get hurt that much. Put six figures into a CCRC and you can get hurt - a ton. Robyn
The living care is part of the monthly fee. My friend explained how they are becoming more sophisticated in their admission at looking at long term financial resources. You need long term financial resources similar to the discussions you and MathJak have regarding your personal finances. Many of your often made points are incorporated in their thinking. They are not for everyone and they are becoming better at identifying their targeted market.
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Old 02-25-2016, 08:41 PM
 
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TuborgP,

So, if you already have your LTCi, is that deducted from the monthly fee?
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:12 PM
 
29,782 posts, read 34,876,173 times
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Originally Posted by LookingatFL View Post
TuborgP,

So, if you already have your LTCi, is that deducted from the monthly fee?
From what I have read your costs are reduced and there is financial gain. I am not sure the goal for their audience is financial as much as long term security and creating a high quality secure future. The gain may be money refunded as a result of credits at death.
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:36 PM
 
29,782 posts, read 34,876,173 times
Reputation: 11705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55 View Post
My father has lived in a Brookdale independent senior living rental place here for 10 years now. It has been satisfactory as a rental (although it has gotten worse in some respects the last couple of years best I can tell). I wouldn't give Brookdale 10 cents - much less tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars - in advance - to do anything for me in my old age. I wouldn't use the ALF units where my father lives if he needed assisted living. I have no experience with Brookdale SNF facilities (my father's place doesn't have a SNF). But - since I wouldn't use the Brookdale ALF stuff - doubt any Brookdale SNF would be any better.

Like I said - we've been pretty happy with the independent living rental. My aunt is similarly happy in a Brookdale independent living rental in Westchester County (NY). So - IMO - renting is ok. Buying into a Brookdale CCRC - no way. Robyn
I have little research on Brookdale. I just used their web page as a illustration and explaination of Living Care Plans.
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Old 02-26-2016, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL
14,628 posts, read 17,935,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
The living care is part of the monthly fee. My friend explained how they are becoming more sophisticated in their admission at looking at long term financial resources. You need long term financial resources similar to the discussions you and MathJak have regarding your personal finances. Many of your often made points are incorporated in their thinking. They are not for everyone and they are becoming better at identifying their targeted market.
To me - it becomes kind of circular. Like that old statement from Groucho Marx:

I sent the club a wire stating, "PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER".

People are looking to the CCRC for some kind of security down the road - but the CCRC in turn is trying to find residents who have enough that they can basically "self-insure". People who don't need the security.

Also - I am not sure how any financial scrutiny of prospective residents can insure against (often unknowable) things that might happen in the future. Pre-2008 - who could have predicted the Great Recession and its economic and financial consequences?

Note that there are exogenous factors that can influence the ways these places operate. Mostly for the worst. In recent years - those factors have included the ACA - and higher food costs. The former has led places to reduce employee hours (so the employees aren't covered by the ACA mandates). Which increases employee dissatisfaction. The latter has led to poorer quality food. Down the road - higher minimum wages may be a factor (because many employees in these places are minimum wage employees). When it comes to a large national outfit like Brookdale (and even smaller more local outfits) - I find that employee reviews of their employers on sites like Indeed and Glass Door can provide some good insights into what's going on.

I guess I lived in condos for enough years to dislike the notion of having a bunch of strangers who don't necessarily share my values or sensibilities dictate how I'm going to live. And condos - which are operated not for profit for people who are mostly in good health with all their marbles - have a lot fewer "moving parts" than CCRCs - especially "for profit" CCRCs.

FWIW - one thing I've noticed locally in recent years is the proliferation of new ALFs - in 2 flavors. "Regular" and "Memory Care" - i.e., dementia. There are also some new "independent living" rental places. Not much new on the SNF front. So the "a la carte" rental choices are expanding - albeit unevenly. Another thing that has changed is the age of people entering various flavors of retirement rental places. It's going up.

Note that the average age of people entering CCRCs has historically been about 80.

Aging Insights: Residents Share What It's Like To Live in a Retirement Community - US News

Probably one reason they don't at all seem attractive to me (at age 68). Hard to know what my thinking will be when I'm 80. Robyn
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