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Old 03-14-2008, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
30,682 posts, read 49,449,101 times
Reputation: 19134

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexanWest View Post
I have one question for you, Cousinsal: just what makes social workers so valuable? Do they create new technologies? Medicines? Manufactured products? This isn't about "values" getting messed-up in the 80's. Social workers have never been well-paid and never will be. There are tens of thousands of college graduates every year who go into the social work field, and most do not have marketable skills of any sort--they're often paper pushers for some government agency, so the market pays accordingly.
Social work, law enforcement, military, teaching; none of those have been thought of as high paying career fields for a long time.

Social work is a new field, a hundred years ago it did not exist at all. The closest thing was priests or nuns.

The last century has changed our society a great deal.

Child labor laws defining childhood and adulthood, into separate classes and protecting childhood. Later public-funded education came into existence. So many things that were began as experiments and nobody was truly sure of how they would effect our society.

The government taking over education and care of the indigent, areas that our government had never touched before.

At least our nation started by saying that only single females who had their parents to support them and who met rigid moral standards could teach in a public-funded school. Teacher's wages were never very high. It was not a profession that was ever considered for a person who was going to support a family, in fact the pay was not enough to support the teacher.
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Old 03-14-2008, 09:39 PM
Status: "0-0-2 Game On!" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: The beautiful Rogue Valley, Oregon
7,297 posts, read 15,350,510 times
Reputation: 9468
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexanWest View Post
I have one question for you, Cousinsal: just what makes social workers so valuable? Do they create new technologies? Medicines? Manufactured products?
Do CEOs create new technologies? Salesmen? No, engineers and scientists create new technologies, yet both salesmen and CEOs for tech companies are rewarded far more handsomely than the people who create the valued item. Pay scales and perceived status have little to do with object creation. Note that CEOs have to be rewarded with huge bonus to keep them loyal to the company and to get them to do their best work - yet engineers are rewarded by keeping their jobs come review time.

(Yes, I was an engineer, can you tell?)

Also, next time you are in the hospital, note the person who is most important to your immediate well-being - the CNA or medical health worker who actually attends you on a daily basis. Not the doctor you rarely see or the charge nurse who might pop in from time to time. That CNA is paid between $9-$15 an hour because cleaning up after people isn't valued as highly coming up with sittiing in an office and creating mortgage derivatives.
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Old 03-14-2008, 09:50 PM
 
105 posts, read 450,049 times
Reputation: 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by PNW-type-gal View Post
Do CEOs create new technologies? Salesmen? No, engineers and scientists create new technologies, yet both salesmen and CEOs for tech companies are rewarded far more handsomely than the people who create the valued item. Pay scales and perceived status have little to do with object creation. Note that CEOs have to be rewarded with huge bonus to keep them loyal to the company and to get them to do their best work - yet engineers are rewarded by keeping their jobs come review time.

(Yes, I was an engineer, can you tell?)

Also, next time you are in the hospital, note the person who is most important to your immediate well-being - the CNA or medical health worker who actually attends you on a daily basis. Not the doctor you rarely see or the charge nurse who might pop in from time to time. That CNA is paid between $9-$15 an hour because cleaning up after people isn't valued as highly coming up with sittiing in an office and creating mortgage derivatives.
Yes, the CEO's and salespeople do profit handsomely from a product, even if they don't create it. Why? Because they use their marketable skill to exploit the market. An engineer, even if highly paid, may not have the connections or networking or marketing skills to fully exploit the product. Once again, you get paid what you're worth. If a technology sits on a shelf and collects dust, what use is it until someone figures out how to properly bring it to market (e.g. Steve Jobs). And with each sale, revenues increase, as revenues increase, so do monies for R&D, which, in turn, creates new technologies.

I also go though the yearly routine of performance evaluation, and get any pay raises based on that. And, while my job is important in finalizing the packaging or the products (as well as producing instruction books and advertisments), it's ultimately up to the CEO and sales staff to move the product. They don't move it, I don't get paid, and neither do the engineers.

Your example of nurse pay only illustrates my point. There are far more nurses than investment brokers who create mortgage derivatives, or who initiate energy trades. Once again, supply and demand.
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Old 03-14-2008, 10:35 PM
Status: "0-0-2 Game On!" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: The beautiful Rogue Valley, Oregon
7,297 posts, read 15,350,510 times
Reputation: 9468
You will note that CNAs don't cause the fall of Bear Sterns, the tanking of an entire market segment and the bailout of the mortgage industry by the Feds. Going simply by the free market and supply and demand is a frequent invitation to disaster and the marginalization of entire segments of the working population.

But, hey it IS true, money is all that matters....
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Old 03-15-2008, 07:02 AM
 
15 posts, read 35,626 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PNW-type-gal View Post
Somewhere around the time when the government ceased to call us "citizens" and started calling us "consumers" instead. We live in a consumption-based culture, and if people actually stopped buying things and started saving money, the whole economic carousel would grind to a halt.
There is glory in that concept. How do we get the people who live here to understand that if we start saving and stop buying the supply and demand cycle will change.
Instant gratification is a fools game! You chase after it and it leads you into debt.

Hence this latest tax rebate, which is one of the stupidest, short-sighted concepts I've heard - "the economy is slowing down, so let's give people money so'll they'll spend it and keep the economy going." Either the tax revenues are necessary to keep the government going and a tax rebate gets "repaid" by cutting gov't services/functions (which won't help the economy) or they were collecting too much in the first place.
Are you kidding the retailers are already drumming up ways to get that money out of you even before you get it.
You can probably even get a loan before you get the money. That is sad!
It does not matter how much money you make it only matters what you do with the money you make.

You are so very right.
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Old 03-15-2008, 03:29 PM
 
Location: USA
4,980 posts, read 8,437,915 times
Reputation: 2506
A lot of us used to be in the middle class. I am trying to raise my kids on my own, and it has been difficult. Don't tell me to go back to school because I did, and that isn't a cure-all for the high costs of living. No one lives happily ever after.
It is very hard for our generation to save, vs. our parent's generation. Things are very expensive now, from healthcare to insurance, to rent.
I probably will never retire. One day, I will just go to work and have a coronary there and they can let the cleaning people bag me.
I get tired of hearing people who have pensions, retirement, and all complaining. They are very lucky if they have those things. Many of us have not been frivolous with our money. But I see women who have gold-dug their way into marriages with attorneys and doctors, and they won't ever be hurting.
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Old 03-15-2008, 03:33 PM
 
Location: USA
4,980 posts, read 8,437,915 times
Reputation: 2506
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Well you went into that field knowing the wages weren't that great. How did you plan for retirement at that point knowing your field was undervalued and pay wasn't that great ?

At some point people have to take responsibility for the decisons they made.
And then make adjustments based on those decisions.

For many, it wasn't that simple. A lot of people went into fields that did pay well or were in demand. But the economy changed from a manufacturing to a service sector economy, and it wasn't what it was 30 years ago.

It's a one-size, one fits all answer to say "you should have known." Most people I know are responsible and not lazy in the least.
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Old 03-15-2008, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
30,682 posts, read 49,449,101 times
Reputation: 19134
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
... It is very hard for our generation to save, vs. our parent's generation. Things are very expensive now, from healthcare to insurance, to rent.
I disagree.

In the 20's, wages were lower than today.

Through the 30's wages were largely non-existant.

It took a long time for wages to get up as high as they are today.

Many folks earn today in one week, what folks back then got in a year.
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Old 03-15-2008, 03:37 PM
 
Location: USA
4,980 posts, read 8,437,915 times
Reputation: 2506
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
I disagree.

In the 20's, wages were lower than today.

Through the 30's wages were largely non-existant.

It took a long time for wages to get up as high as they are today.

Many folks earn today in one week, what folks back then got in a year.

You can't go by wages...it is cost of living and increases. Everything cost less long ago, and you can keep going back.
But the rate of the cost of living increases has gone up. Last year, it was 7%.
Again, a one size fits all answer.
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Old 03-15-2008, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,738,045 times
Reputation: 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
For many, it wasn't that simple. A lot of people went into fields that did pay well or were in demand. But the economy changed from a manufacturing to a service sector economy, and it wasn't what it was 30 years ago.

It's a one-size, one fits all answer to say "you should have known." Most people I know are responsible and not lazy in the least.
I agree. The fact is,,,, if you haven't been in the shoes of other people and know how theyv'e gotten into what ever position there in, it's not fair to judge and even worse to assume that if one person got himself in a bad position everyone else that has to struggle in life caused their own problems too.
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